Read this: Mishal Husain, Andy Wilman, and the Traitors finale

Sounds music Radio podcasts hello, I'm Kimberley Wilson psychologist and in my new Park Complex I'll be your guide through all the information and misinformation that out there about mental health.

I'm joined by expert guests covering topics from people pleasing perfectionism the empathy define tangible advice, so we can understand ourselves a little better complex with me Kimberly Wilson listen on BBC sounds and Katie razzall.

Hello, I'm Ros Atkins this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome this week Michelle Hussain on her new Bloomberg show and I'm leaving the PC and the woman is the man behind Jeremy Clarkson's TV career will talk Top Gear the Grand Tour and much more it's the week of the traitors final and we'll be joined by the shows exist.

Reducing my cotton and the BBC is under fire again this time over a range of claims and criticisms including our Panorama documentary about Donald Trump was edited but will again with a treat for love you.

Enjoy listening to her calm Incisive voice on the Today programme for years which I was saying is back on Radio 4 well for the next few minutes anyway.

She left the BBC after 22 Bloomberg having guided audiences through elections pandemic.

Royal marriages and funerals and global summit she know host the Michelle Hussain show and she join me in the studio today to talk about her memories of life for the BBC Elon Musk and more but I Began by asking how much her life had changed it's a huge shift in every sense of the word for my professional life and for my life as a whole and the strange thing is because people keep saying to me it must be much easier not having to get up at 3 in the morning and it is but I

Also working harder than I've ever work before because even though you make a weekly so yeah, because look each each kind of working life has its own rhythm and Fridays the day that we pub comes around really quickly and also because at the heart of what I'm doing now.

I'll single in-depth conversations which require a lot of research and I think the beauty of this is what makes a distinctive global guestlist.

It's a single indepth conversation the person has to have depth but also range.

They are conversations led by women and podcasting in the UK still quite a male-dominated sphere and the guests might be from politics to culture to science to sort of all kinds we publish on a weekend on a Friday and so they have a to the weekend feel and we're in three format audio full video and text I have a written version of the informed bloomberg.com include my notes illustrated it off and said why I asked if particular question or how I

Turn the answer came back of particular way taking us behind the scenes.

Yes, it is it is also pulled in those different directions in the run-up to publication and I do want to talk but just in terms of that shift.

Is there a journalistic cultural shift from working at the BBC to work at Bloomberg different operations, but they feel culturally journalist.

I've moved from one house at of editorial standards for another set of high editorial standards for show they are slightly different in the editorial framework that they're hard they both organise care about the same things fairness accuracy doing Justice to your interviewees, so I thinking that sense I feel the the highest standards a with me and I'm still the same person with the values, but certainly the rhythm of the week the fact that I really do now have a licence that's a huge gift and a huge responsibility and you have had a call from big interviews Mark Carney the

Canada evil so interview Elon Musk is there a particular interview so far that you thought this is this is really been brilliant.

This is the best one.

I Tend not to think about where I think you and I know each other well.

You know my voice and therefore probably think for a long time will know that.

I don't go around thinking and that way I'm always thinking what more could I have done what more can I have this conversation or given to this conversation perhaps now.

I do have more of a licence to bring something of myself to these conversations these interviews that doesn't mean my own opinions, but it means perhaps responding to what someone says more humanely then I might have at the BBC Weather sitting in a studio like this.

There is certain language which is probably a more formal language.

Just one of these spoke to reason is Nigel Farage reform leader and one of the questions.

It's worth.

Just having a quick one.

Oscars about the Reformer reform politician Nathan Gill and the source of political donations, let's have a listen.

I'm taking money to ask questions without any shadow of that you can assure photos that there is no one else like Nathan girl in reforms rank.

So if I even suspect it and you're sure that no one else has taken money from Shaw murderer is that your life? It's a stupid question you know that I know that I believe 100% with all my heart as nobody else that interview he repeatedly called you laugh, and I want you didn't respond I wondered did you think at any point of just saying please stop calling me laugh or do not mind me calling you love.

I think it's not the first time that people have addressed me in or curious sometimes.

Moscow be an NPC right non-player character is essentially saying I'm more robot than than his kind of intelligent human.

Yeah that comes from gaming.

Yes, I know that you know that the time.

I knew he'd said something that was you know that it was clear from the context that it was that it was not a compliment put it back do you think he would have had the Elon Musk call Nigel Farage would have done that if you're a man, can I think Elon Musk certainly spoke to me in a way that he wouldn't have spoken to mileage and can't prove that but I think they're not very many women in the world of tech at that level and I think that he just didn't like being questioned in the way he's been texting with plenty of rest as well, so I can't say for sure that you would never use exact words for a woman but but

I think that that's an example of a real moment of heat in that interview with Nigel Farage but but I think there's plenty of light in these conversations as well.

Go episode where publishing on Friday is a dive into the story of Russian women for a book called motherland looking at in a woman's struggles and women's leadership through the Soviet Union and right up to the present day in Putin's Russia and that's what I'm having the opportunity to do the Michelle Hussain show vet I just have this licence to arrange it all of us interested in so many different things in the world and to be able to move from politics to thought leadership.

All kinds is just a cute gift idea about the sensor your bring a bit more of your personality in a particular way.

I know in the Vogue interview did after you left the BBC you can you critique Bombastic presenting stars? What do you do audiences are losing when personality overtake substance in general.

There are probably too many.

Add which aren't based on knowledge, there are a lot of people in our Media firmament not only in broadcasting.

I mean in newspapers and all around as you have positions of power and who who who just have their own.

You know particular hobby horses that they'll talk about again and again and I think I I want to be in the film where the people I talked to have real expertise and where their opinions are based on real knowledge and where I bring something of myself.

I'm also going to do it judiciously and ultimately still feeling that the person I'm talking to is at the heart of the conversation.

My name is on This podcast but that doesn't mean that it's all about me if that's not a curious thing to say I hope you'll understand why is it that way? I'm sure there's a real freedom is in many ways to have left the BBC I love from my perspective.

I spend a lot of time in my day job reporting on BBC controversy and there is of course one as we.

It's Michael Prescott Whistleblower report a legend BBC editorial bias this week on various things including a Panorama about Donald Trump when you are back in.

How do you reflect for example on the corporations approach to impartiality during your tenure and and and people accused of being biased and then you experience particularly this when this comes up is your experience the duties bias, was it more likely to be group thing or an institutional blind spot.

I think that biases are very easy accusation to make and hard activation for the BBC to fight and have seen what internal processes are like I think it remains a deeply self-reflective organisation which of course it has to be but I think those robust processes need to be there ultimately the way that I functioned in that framework a version of that is still part of my world and I celebrate the parts of the media which.

Reflector which do you have higher tutorial standards good plenty of others including often the ones where the activations are coming from do not operate with that kind of rigour and I know since you've left before as well.

You spoken about your heritage and importance of representation one of the clearly one of the big news stories of the last few years has been worn girls.

Are we covered a lot on the media show from a media perspective.

How do you reflect now on how the BBC and other broadcasters have covered that War I think what one of the things I've learnt in the last 2 years with some sadness is that across many parts of the British Media there has been an inability or unwillingness to look at two sets of people with equal eyes with an equal guys where the death of a Palestinian child in the occupied West bank has

Value as the death of an Israeli child or the elderly Palestinian targeted in whatever way that their life is valuable as noteworthy able to be reported in the same way this person died or this person was killed but put away the humanizes them and I think I've discovered that there are many editors and many publications and many parts of broadcasting where that equal lines has not been there and that was that was a really revelation to me.

I didn't really think I'm Media was like that.

I did discover that there was this inability or unwillingness to look at people with the same humanity.

I know you're entering the BBC in that I mean as I said I think there are many parts of many parts of the media more broadly and I do wonder in the fullness of time where the people who.

Decisions across the British Media might look back at some of the decision they made and question them and say that yeah, we didn't look at people with the same length of humanity might not come till they retired that I do wonder if that moment will come and you'll be aware that these issues all sorts of Ice and all sorts of ways and one of the prices.

They accused of is actually being to pro-palestinian showing too much what's happening in the war in Gaza I know calling for Pro anything.

I'm just saying how about looking at people with the same lens.

How about seeing two people civilians children the elderly with the same as how about trying to write about them or describe them all Puma nicer than the same way and how do you reflect now on the fact that you can you hear accused of bias when you are presenting the Today programme about Israel and Gaza on the one occasion and Israeli government spokesman said that.

I think again it's really easy activation to make isn't it and you don't have to back it off at the time.

I was grateful that the nuj put out a statement at that moment saying that it was founded activation and I think it reflected more on him than me then I would like to just asked you how you reflect now in your decision to leave the BBC clearly.

You're so happy now.

You have been here and I can see it and the experience of working but looks very fun as well as important, but do you reflect on what you would have liked to have done if you today, do you have a collection of Wight didn't come to pass well.

I signal about a year and a half ago publicly that I was thinking about what lay beyond today and after a decade that's not an unreasonable thing to have to have wanted to do.

I think as people see what I'm doing now with the mishal Husain so I hope they can see that this is not an opportunity.

I think I would have got on the BBC and I'm

Relishing having this privilege and platform at this stage in my life.

I couldn't be bothered you anything well.

It certainly didn't offer me anything like this, but I've learnt from my professional life that the hardest things you do are the most rewarding and I'm already finding this incredibly rewarding it's already already discovering aspects of my then.

I didn't know whether and I hope that Radio 4 listeners.

Who's still off and come up to me off your book festival and other places and say we miss you and it means so much to me when people say that I realise that I've been in their lives but as I am still alive.

I'm hoping they find me and I can be in their lives again in a different way and looking at your Instagram it looks much more fun.

I think you have Tina Brown and the sea of green bag hosting a party if you wear the cocktails were named after you that is true and I'm not taking that for granted that is wonderful well that.

Tell his hand and will pick up on one of the issues.

We had in that about the BBC impartiality story a little bit later on in the shower, but next on the media show let's move on to this daddy women was the executive producer behind Top Gear and the Grand Tour so he's worked with Hammond James May and Jeremy Clarkson for many years and he's also involved in another collaboration.

Clarkson's Farm his new book is Mr women's motoring adventure which tells the story of finding a niche motoring show into a global head and he's with us welcome.

Hello.

Thank You for the Music I read that when you the four of you were thinking about this show you write you accidentally ended up making TV history and I wonder is that strictly true or even at the Beginning did you have?

Grand plan know this is like it's the it's the core of everything that Jane route her name in his room is like controlla BBC2 she take care of that because it was like looking style and we only had a remit to get 3 million viewers and refresh it that was it and we got that kind of in the first series of us.

It was a shocker is not very good, but we figures and then we were kind of safe, so there was no Plan B on that because we weren't clever enough to think of a world beating show you know if you get like people like to come up with this or X Factor on their planet and I'm a launch it ready to go and it's perfect and we just didn't have any of those ambitions, so you develop before my effectively in front of all of his Yuen Long everything in there was so many things that were accidents the Stig was born out of panic the speak I mean that.

Who is writing and I might be really they will be like they'll be like we couldn't find one to speak and I'm like bloody going to do and he was like hang on a minute.

Do we need one to speak and then he was born from there is any just turn on the top of them this character because but it was out of like solving a problem.

Do you think that kind of freedom to develop in the schedules is available now or the way TV is develop now is going to very different development tends to take away from all of us viewers.

Yeah.

I think we'll know shows grow.

We're watching traitors grow that you can see that tipping point where it's become popular to becoming a phenomenon is happening, but has took years to do so and actually big up the BBC they left us alone to do it.

I can't believe in American network whatever letters get that you know go to Ireland

And Discover things accidentally specials, you know where we got beaten up in Alabama that was an accident that whole show it went on too long so we made a special that wouldn't plan a special and someone and I confess I didn't know until we were preparing to speak to you that you would know Jeremy Clarkson from your childhood like with the two of you kind of already plotting project it didn't exaggerate no hyperbole.

No opinions.

He looked like a school boy version of him know when I first met him like really terrible hair and like his sleeves were up here icon on the radio is pulling up my sleeves away from me and he was he was really funny really curious and he was like I was off games for the had some sort of illness and he was light off.

He was like not off games but the worst person.

Turn on the football pitch find a TV dreams, then we had two trouble together and I think the what we took from school was the way in which we got into trouble remember.

It's a boarding school in the 70s you you don't have to do a lot to get into trouble so I'll mischief was hardly like you're not burning buildings down.

It was like white but we did it with quite a bit of charm and I think for the best part when Top Gear got into trouble.

It was usually charming until obviously we went to find it wasn't charming of the best part of there was that child where the viewers in a daily Mail Daily Mirror would go out rage with the viewers.

Will I know this is an outrage just like kids mucking about about you being executive producer.

Presumably part of your job is you were managing three very strong personality.

How do you manage the creative tension? What was the secret? What is what was the keeping the show on track and there wasn't any tension it was they had the same kind of sense of humour and they're the same Outlook about cars and that was key.

So they won't competing with each other about he wanted to do it for like I remember if we doing a read through for the news and there's some somebody's had a joke and that sort of fell on the floor that I'll go all of that one.

If you know that is a sample for it to tell but they they had the same idea about cars, which was quite a lateral view of cars.

Which was raring those days, so there was no everyone kind of jailed in that way that they could sit in the pub and talk in the same way, they could sit and talk on TV so the tension isn't that I'd say it was clear that Jeremy editorial is Victoria Lee is a powerhouse cos he's got.

So he was always coming up with we'll come up with ideas.

What you come up with the most and they were usually thought through so you go right.

That's it.

We're doing that will help develop it.

I was good in the Edit so I kind of take over afterwards and that you can kind of work, so there was no tension.

There was no fighting about it wasn't going you know I want my guitar louder sort of thing that didn't go on.

When did you realise things were starting to unravel? I leave talk about 18 becoming entitled and all like kids too much sugar in a party.

When did you how did you realise that just really want it wasn't obvious.

No it wasn't obvious because it was so popularity and size was rising at the same level as the workload and the pressure to maintain so we there we are 2003.

Before we got a 3 million viewers an hour online and a car show it makes no sense now in the Guinness book of records for most watched in the world and where like you know, where is he sent where do we go? What do we what? Where did it end in terms of behaviour? Do you feel a some point that success start impact on on how people behaving all the types of programs you and making no we were we were still good and I look at the last series.

We did when I was like looking at you forget what you did and I was looking at series 22 is unlike did we see these things he's a good so we were still on it, but the pressure we were coming up are the wheels were coming off the pressure of a relationship snow in there are controversies most and connected to Jeremy Clarkson wear their points where you thought goodness.

I'm not sure this is someone I want to work with any more or goodness this program is now has as a cultural.

Environment which is not what I would have wanted because it didn't have a bad cultural environment and then we got investigated for that and we were found absolutely fine.

You know you get them down to you because quite often it's left from the top of the light at least that's what I've been told that we had a good we had a really good time.

It was a boisterous noisy Office but it was tight and then when does an investigation ordered by the culture of the programme in the office we came out with flying colours and the office was very angry the investigation and you know these things are confidential the know you can get in is it's up to the office.

There is at the finals where we were tied team, but our relationship with the BBC was utterly broken that got to on top of that where the blame they were those was I think we got entitled but all our misdemeanours were outwards.

It wasn't like stuff.

The office I'll Mr M were where we said the wrong thing Mexico being rude about Mexican stuff like that all I'm missing is with outward-facing and that's where when I talk about entitled we kind of just thought we could do what we lied we decided what was funny.

You know everything because the reason it all came to an end with Kinect something that happened within the production team.

I was directly connected to Jeremy Clarkson's behaviour yeah, that was a big bus stop and then he turned himself in the next day and then everything was suspended, so it wasn't like some kind of toxic finger been brewing that was literally use the word meltdown as well, but whatever it was but he turned himself in the next day, so it wasn't like the climax of a process up until that point.

What was about yourself in the final you what was that?

How did it affect the creative process and that was a 90% of our time with the BBC was brilliant and when we got into trouble with them? It was funny and when the BBC did some of its BBC things like they would w1800i quite charming.

You know that period was toxic it was back and forth tension cause we like hang on you've just investigated as we're fine.

That's been proven independently don't now put a reminder in the Edit so we were like all the time at that point in that environment the shows kind of collapsing in on itself with the workload and the press something's going to give it's gonna go wrong and a good deal of time talking about motoring programs.

Not just Top Gear but the Grand Tour yet, but we must ask you about Clarkson's farm, which are all

I'm going to ask you the same question is asked at the beginning of the interview when you and Jeremy Clarkson first.

I'll talk about making a farming programme.

Did you imagine that you could turn it into something that's most popular is a hat.

Ok first thing it was totally his idea that came about with when Amazon I just a quickie Amazon offered all four of us like a solo deal to make us do more grand tours and we will all those terrible 1970s prog rock bands.

Have a go.

I will get us lol but will do that.

Jeremy wanted to do the farming show but he was like this is going to work an Amazon exactly the same to me.

Can you talk him out of that because you know my god a man with a tractor so I rang them.

When are you feeling as knives in your back cause any was like what and I was like getting sorted out need to talk you out of it me when I do not blame them.

He said this could be a disaster, but what we didn't know was that cost was around the corner because that cost is not a cast.

It's the people who.

Farm already within know the TV gold so we got in the same way that Top Gear was lightning in a bottle the Grand Tour and so was a professionally made show the farm is lightning in a bottle as well.

You know it's just it's just it amazes us everyday in the same way that Top Gear and days does does that make sense we should ask me just because we have with you.

Are you and Jeremy Clarkson planning another format another unlikely format after the success of the no not about this one.

We really are so yeah the minute.

Thank you very much for coming and adventurous out now.

Thank you very much.

Thank you know and he was talking about the BBC we go back a little bit more because once again the PC is having to respond to questions and criticisms of its news coverage this time.

Comes in the form of a series of reports in The Telegraph which detail a range of concerns raised by Michael Prescott in an internal memo which we haven't seen but Mr Prescott was an independent external to the BBC editorial guidelines and standards committee and he left that role in June because you and I've been looking at the story of the last couple of days as various aspects first of all it concerns of speech by trump on January 6th 2021 and how that speech was edited in an edition of Panorama forecast last year.

There are two sexes the speech that in the program at edited together, but in this picture of 50 minutes apart, so I guess the first question here is does the BBC defend the process that leads those clips been put together well we asked the BBC press office about this and they said you don't comment on leaps documents when the BBC receives feedback.

It takes it seriously and considers it carefully went on to say Michael Prescott is a former advisor to a board committee where differing views and opinions.

Call coverage are routinely discussed and debated but the BBC has not explicitly stated is the Edit is all isn't acceptable.

I think it's running just through what exactly happened on the panel mama programme that was broadcast we heard Donald Trump say we're going to walk down to the capital and I'll be there with you and we fight we fight like hell in fact that the head of two bits of a speech and in the fast party actually said we're going to walk down to the capital and we're going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen Congress men and women the reference was in a much later section of the speech now.

It's not unusual to take clips from different places in programs.

It is more unusual not to show your working and a question here is whether the be characterised the president's role in The events around the Capitol Hill riots with that edit the story another concerns creditors of the BBC's coverage of Gaza including specific cancer.

Around BBC Arabic the Telegraph reports Mr Prescott found Stark differences between how BBC Arabic and the main BBC News website had covered the conflict and needed the coverage of the war in Gaza and in many different forms of being a subject that we turn to all the middle show multiple times and in recent months absolutely on BBC Arabic the position is with regard to it.

Where mistakes have been made or errors have occurred with acknowledge them at the time and taking action with also previously acknowledged that sad and contributed should not have improved Processes to Avoid a repeat of this but I would say of course more broadly the BBC has been under pressure on this story the latest controversy because they follow on two previous Gazza documentary controversy and the Bob Dylan performance at Glastonbury and the other day that I hadn't recorded on the BBC controversy for a bit so be careful what you wish for.

Find the broader critique within the story which is at the BBC is not listening when people raise concerns internally such as on the BBC's coverage of trans issues now.

We should definitely say internal discussion of completely normal and used as a disagreement over how best to go about it, so we shouldn't be surprised that everyone doesn't agree but the concern being racist here is not only about the particular issues about how the BBC considers different perspectives.

Do you think that give the story extra weight well? It's certainly a prospective isn't it? It's a criticism of her before that inside the BBC everyone coalesces around expected that there's groupthink and clearly I would say that would be a view held inside the Telegraph so significant that the story started there.

I think more broadly the story is going to continue because the MPs on the media and sport committee of now ask the BBC for a copy of the memo they've after series of questions including what the chair Samir Shah is doing to address the concerns and I do it the BBC's answer to be made public.

Ok, I suspect this story could develop into ways maybe others how MPs respond next is going to be important and if there were further stories to come in The Telegraph now that some of this.

Welcome, but don't get comfortable this game doesn't care who you are in here your glamorous lives count for nothing.

Most of you will be murdered.

Sorry about that.

She's not really sorry if she well you won't need to tell you that that is from Celebrity Traders already one of the TV successes of the year and we have the final to come on Thursday and already we have some astonishing ratings on this show the first episode of week 15 million viewers.

That's a combination of the live or die combined with people watching On Demand on iPlayer we are fully expecting the final to go well beyond that ok.

You really know when a show is Cutting Through when people start using phrases that have featuring within it we had Joe marler dog Theory we will say Joe marler talking about it.

If you've not been watching these people he's sure of his 100% You know even just walk into work today.

The people behind me as walking to the tube station about trousers.

He's also creative director at studio Lambert is here.

It's great to have you back of the show my thanks again firstly.

I can't even think I have to ask this question but I will and you can do it briefly explain the format for the few people who haven't been watching people celebrities have been invited to the latest castle in the Scottish highlands to play The Ultimate Murder Mystery Tour Dr chita, Sunderland to be the traitors the recipe play the game of called the faithful.

It's night under the cover of Darkness the trade is murder one of the faithful removing them from the game.

It's up to the to work out who they Traders R&B Aniston from the game before they become the next victim and you got this a list cast.

How did you go about casting them? And is it tougher when it's celebrities as a is to real people? I know that real people but you know what I mean.

I think we approached this every cartoon exactly the same way we love about the traitors.

It's a game that anybody from any walk of I can play.

Age any type of person could play it and that we also talked about it.

She's my car MOT'd assembly jewellery and people bring different things to the game called approaching a different way it would do the same thing last level 2 cast zoomable.

You must have had riders from agents saying will I do want my celebrities end up looking bad things written contract so you can't make me want to be a traitor or there going to be a faithful not actually like we were very clear with all the celebrities that if they were coming to do this, but maybe treating exactly same way we doing the original version they had no special treatment.

They reflect exactly the same practises and what we happy all the people that are taking all of our cough came really because they love the game and they're waiting for the profile that came because they love the photo.

Just wanted to play it and what kind of prep work.

Thank you.

Have to do a lot of prep work with the participants before hand.

What does that involve celebrities when they're taking part?

We I think the Tracy's that was his first and foremost the game much like Monopoly there's a set of Rules that they have to buy buy so we make sure we understand the rules of the game because one saying it's we just let them go presumably you are having to save them look we go I need this much time from you and within each day so much of the day.

You're going to be miked up with cameras on you so much of the day.

You might be able to get some exercise or do some other things or have no phone as well.

I read that nobody has left for the two weeks or have to come and take part with is going which is two to three week period you block that time out entirely cut off from the outside world you fully immersed so they all came in Absolutely knowing that the only time they're not film does when they're sleeping in their individual actions that night as they arrive at Castle they're on camera and they filmed in till.

I'll even go to bed now.

There are a number of questions that people want us to ask you about how you make this program and I'm aware because I remember when we talked about this.

Previous is that you don't want to share all the details of how traitors is me.

Why is that is it a little more to keep the magic but all things to preserve the secrecy.

I think anyone want to make many more seasons of this show and people who pay the gamer so desperate to try and find a way that they can work out with friends are and will never not be because of the way that we film The Show thereby keeping all that secret.

It means we preserve the integrity of the game that make sure that we can have successful feature season with all that said you are going to try and ask you some questions was the 37th.

How do you decide the traitors and how close to the moment they find out you decide right before we start filming season exactly who created going to be quite like to be a traitor, but we genuinely wait until they arrive at the castle will see them travel to the castle and see them on the train.

Don't forget there.

They obviously meet one.

Show me have a week all the gold chat Victoria was it was interviews and I control chat with the goal by the Roaring fire and see Arthur and whether they want to be a traitor or faithful that would never make someone who wants to be a faithful Retreat actors that wouldn't worry but they want to do it and if you would talk to all those people still chat all of the cost and then after that we have his memory Locker cells in a room.

There's Claudia who is very involved in bed BBC that's all of us produces and we decide who we think the tray should be that happened literally just before she goes into that grand haven taps on the shoulder and what about how involved in the producers in the game we could do you adapt according to how it's going so when there was a tide for example.

We saw a game of chance.

Are you having to come with that with that on the day or no would be terrified and we think people are we really hands off as producers and I'm not believe that that we plan our season in advance.

We have twist that we can we have different missions reset that up with really.

It's a game with me know when they're going to happen and then we just go with it then will do x will you simply record the entire series get it back to base and then start editing or are you sitting there as the celebrities are interacting as the Round Tables happening.

Ok? That's a plot line.

We want the phone.

We we recorded in America afterwards like that.

The former is really clever in that episode that to me a murder and a banishment you got to tell the story of why someone's been banished and Wi-Fi must be murdered, so you've never appreciate by that way in the middle all the other stuff.

I'm gonna theories that go on in between surprised by her rubbish the celebrities are working out who traitors.

I don't think it's really hard.

It's really hard to work out when someone's lying to you and when you're free the 70s was so what about how they became in the

So quickly, I just wondered whether celebrities better at lying or an ordinary people are better.

It's because you know they were better than previous episodes people.

Obviously it's hard to spot a traitor, but they were the celebrities have been brilliant at lying and I think that I think you know that done a really good job.

I think was also interesting about the celebrity version is in our original version are strangers have no idea about 1 an effective time in someone having pre-existing relationships or preconceived notions about one another I cannot definitely inferences with Jasmine and some of them not most of them some of them of talk as the series has been going out about experience Jonathan Ross probably being the most high-profile example and he said he found it harder than he was expecting has not been entirely positive about the experience with you surprised to hear him.

Say that I need to unlock the experiences of taking but I think he has said post that yet she struggled with being a traitor and I understand that he really wants to be a traitor.

He said at the start of Claudia I could be a traitor or

We love you, I'd rather be afraid because he's really clever and he's really strategic but when you're in that game 24/7.

You're having to lies all the people that you build relationships with that is tiring and that's hard.

I think you said that off with that he struggled with that and found that the difficult that's quite like having to life someone all of the time and you've made a lot of TV but how does it feel for you going into tomorrow night knowing that you've made something just likely to break records and we watched by so many people is amazing like a so hasn't been going that long and it's growing and growing season, but it's lovely just taken off you know the finale tomorrow.

It was a bit like the World Cup pubs showing it.

There's cinemas are showing at that absolutely produces that blows I got one last question.

I know we've all been wondering this how many people know the result because you must be terrified of the result leaking so you must try and keep it in quite a small if there's a small.

Group of people that know the result and and we rely on Trust to be recorded as the Tracy's family that make the so we WhatsApp group without name and we just trust and we're allowed first of all to do with that secret and we're expert Liars making a say because you've got all the time so I trust that will always keep that as well Mike thank you so much for coming on the program and of course the celebrity finale as tomorrow Thursday 6th of November from 9 p.m.

On BBC One and also on iPlayer.

Are you watching it by the way? I guess you've seen it quite a few times already.

I think I've watched it far too many times but we are we going to actually somewhere in East London there's a big event spaces have an event and then she can't wait to see the public's reaction to it.

Enjoy it tomorrow night.

Thank you very much for coming in remember.

You can listen back to all the dishes the media show on BBC sounds, but for me it from Katie bye.

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