Read this: Ian Hislop, Gary Lineker's new podcast deal with Netflix, YouTubers filming drug and alcohol use in Manchester, football

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Hello.

I was Atkins this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome Katie's off this week, so it's me and I guess keeping you company for the 45 minutes on today's programme with two sports stories will be looking at how streaming piracy is costing the sports industry billions of pounds and Gary Lineker

Would Netflix for his rest is football podcast a move that reveals plenty about broader podcast trans plus one of Britain's biggest regional papers the Manchester Evening News paywall for the first time will be talking to his editor Sarah Leicester will also discuss the YouTubers who were filming alcohol and drug use in Manchester City Centre and reaching significance order but we going to begin with the guest needs No Introduction in Hislop is added to a private.

I am team captain on Have I Got News For You Ian welcome to the media show thank you.

Get to have you on the programme now right in my hands here.

I've got the Private Eye annual.

There are of course lots of satirical pieces within about many subjects including the media.

I just wondered if it was you had a lot of option when you were thinking about media stories to include.

Yes, obviously the sale of the Telegraph which we will fully misinterpreted as the sale of one copy of the

Kept us laughing most of the year, but I think they now found a buyer WHSmith travel.

I think someone has has bought a coffee then.

That's very good news on the media show to the you might have done and then the BBC provides the rest of the material so we're away really ok and you've obviously been producing this all and editing private eye for many years.

I wonder if you've observed fundamental shifts in the media the British media and how it goes about it's work.

Yes, what I mean.

I will say that we when I started I was trying to find stories that no one knew and now we spend most of the magazine pointing out the stories on true and it would be better if you believe this.

I mean there is a real amplification of platforms and saucers and a subsequent loss of authority and consensus about.

There is a lot of time doing that and extra resources because getting to the absolute fact of the matter can take a long time.

Yes, I mean very but it's one of the things you have to do because when people say well.

I don't believe anything you say and you say well, who do you believe in they say well this bloke? I know has got a podcast and then sub stack from his bedroom.

I mean it isn't quite the same and attempting to get to the bottom of the things is a problem a eyes no better.

I mean I was looking up a I last week.

We were looking Google's AI in the office and we said who owns private eye and we were owned by Richard Desmond the former pornographer Express and van involved in that business with Robert jenrick over and development.

He doesn't own the magazine so he said to AI you sure about this and then it said oh No privatising by Lord Rothermere so like the Telegraph we apparently being bought by the male as well.

Just wondering who doesn't private I trust the private I trust you already alluded to the fact that some of your work goes into fracture.

Of course.

There's a broad range of work.

That's involved in introducing private eye and we often like to ask people coming onto the media show about the the day-to-day work the processes behind the media products that they enjoy consuming so perhaps you could start by helping us understand.

Where is there an average day in the editor of the magazine David days about half journalism and half jokes.

It's a bit like at the magazine itself said there's a certain amount of making sure the colonists and the lodge.

Freelance contributors as well as the smaller number of Staff journalists are up for it have got the stories.

They were against produce something.

What are the problems with autism is the following a story sometimes it doesn't pan out which you know as a business model is hopeless do you have say a morning meeting so most newsagents would have and smashes through the different stories and issues of the day of the week.

Do you have something? Yes we have morning meeting and we do that then we have a very long lunch Where We Stand politicians those people to come and enjoy your hospitality and in a spirit of mutual respect and pass on anything interesting did the people say yes to that because presumably these people who in your pages.

You will sometimes take a man.

Yes for the wines terribly good.

Have you met new people as editor now? I'm afraid I haven't so that takes a lot of the middle of the week and then towards the end of the week.

There's a series of writing sections of jokes so 34 people get together in the room.

I'm one of them and try and write jokes about what's been happening parodies whatever then I have to collect people like Craig Brown Diaries did a marvellous in our time last week about the history of in our time.

You have lost experts who came on and told all I have to do that and by the way that the BBC Is Announced the present who's taking over from melvyn, Bragg on in our time.

It will be talking to Misha Glenny we going to get back to talk about that later in the program.

I'm excellent and then I have to do the cartoons during the pandemic a double the number of cartoons.

I thought people really did want a laugh more than anything so we have 50 cartoons and issue, and I choose them over the course of the week, which I really enjoyed doing this is it literally you're sitting at your computer on your desk and thinking that one really has tickled me or a broader process involving others no idea there was a phase weather a lot of particularly younger cartoonist to we're just putting their stuff up online for free and I was contacting them and saying that you're really funny this new idea.

I'll give you some money.

Thank you.

Give me that let me ask how much do you pay for a cartoon in private eye 100 something I mean.

It is a reasonable whack and then you get repeat fees and then quite a lot of the the classics assault to read his people writing and say I want that you mentioned that you've got this huge network of freelancers who contribute of reports and stories into the magazine.

How do you go about that checking those serving all of those help us understand the process of that initial email arriving with the proposed story and what we see is the reader will there's a small number of really good journalist on the magazine full time and then we got a very good.

I'm set of sub.

So it goes through all of them and then it gets to me and I sort of having a decision at that point but up to that point.

It's her it doesn't just go in on a postcode and of course I have to say this for all the people that we've got very very good lawyers.

Who are very very responsible and make sure that the what goes in his is fully young fully between you and sometimes about what I'm going and what shouldn't yes, but they're they're they're enables rather than block them and I'm interested in the thing about private eyes.

You have this a different subjects that you cover we're going to be talking about a local and regional news media in a while.

I wonder if you felt that Private Eye has had to fill in some of the gaps where broader news industry has struggled not least because of the constructional changes and how businesses work within the news media.

Yeah, that's exactly right that is has made some of our columns a real strength the rotten Boroughs which is all local news.

I could literally feel the whole magazine with that and that is entirely it's florist.

The lack of local newspapers so many clothes down the amount of pressure council's put on local newspapers because they take up the advertising of a published in themselves, so that the real a real and service I think andergrove area the rotten Boroughs common which is as has been incredibly strong investigative journalism.

I think is in good health the last five years or so bit more.

There's been a Resurgence in national newspapers and others which is great, but it's still expensive and it's still people are reluctant to do it so I'm particularly the long-running campaigns which people feel guardian Britain another piece about the postmasters.

Have you will yeah? We have and you're not doing Tyneside building Teesside again.

There is a sense in which you can borrow people but the thing with the eyes.

I think we'll just run it again and

Something else in the bag as well as interesting because they'll be people who work in the media or consumer Media he'll be aware of that phenomenon where audience interest in an important store he starts to wane and that can start influencing the decisions that the Editors might take but you're saying you just to some degree ignore that and run it anyway.

Yes, I mean there is a there is a real virtue can just doing it again and again again and it's you know it's it's like a rollercoaster Curve and I'm the interest comes back.

I was also told you about Have I Got News for You by must ask you why we talk about private.

Are you obviously done this job for for a great while have you ever thought what I would like to do another job as well or a different job is it ever cross your mind to not being sitting in the office where I can see you sitting now when I I can see the younger members of staff thinking really is time that at the

No, I mean terrific job and I haven't to be honest I didn't get the call for director-general.

I think that the process is still ongoing.

Are you in again? Not get my CV out? Well, I think the BBC put the out was it last week.

It's online but everyone to apply for including in his job and what about what I Have I Got News For You So one of the questions.

I think I find myself wondering when I watches you and Paul Merton and even some of the guests will often do an extended rear from one subject or another do you get some about the risks that you might be expected to do yeah, it said it's called a newspaper different stories in the newspaper are there in and not all of them require an extended Have I got news for you.

If you look at the first round that tends to be the stories that you'd have to be dead not to know I tend to find that by the second round where we got lost in store.

Surveys or animals as you may have noticed I tend to get no points at all and I've no idea what's going on so I find if I stick to the the stuff.

I know then time to be honest having the longest and you just think well, are they going to cut this anyway? Have I gone too long? Is it boring and they give you a certain freedom when you're recording it know if for whatever reason it doesn't hang together or you say something you wish you hadn't you've got that backdrop of knowing the Edit is still you come.

Yes, so I don't get any hand in the end.

It just pull the Producers a very fierce keeping it out interesting finally again.

I'm sure they'll people loves me wonder this you laugh with the people on your teams but also your sometimes turn on them on issues that you may wish to discuss on them.

How does that dynamic work before and after the the program because sometimes the exchanges can be reasonably sure that you're not just with teammates, but with some house as well.

Yes, it can get uncomfortable which is good in its way, is it in the green room is a good well.

We don't always meet before London sometimes people don't come for a drink afterwards.

I can imagine that might be the case, Ian thank you very much indeed and that's Ian Hislop editor of Private Eye and the Private Eye annual 2025 is out now.

Thanks.

My pleasure.

We just heard about Private Ryan its business model very much still rests on its print edition, but we never talk Manchester Evening News because it has for the first time introduced a paywall for its premium online content it will cost 499 a month.

Let's talk to it.

So Leicester who's weather for Manchester hi Sarah hello well with the obvious question why you doing it well couple of different reasons it's partial paywall so some of our news.

It was important to provide free news and will continue to do it, but we know that some readers dance like hard to read because he melts which we need to take the dualism so message to all readers is the pay for the journalism through Reading articles and carry.

You subscribe and additional content and they sort apps into I think he's a very real need to talk about the value of journalism, and it might be where we are in terms of misinformation.

We need to value that little bit more about giving some readers the option of getting some of the ads, but it also partly because bloody the ads just on meeting all of your course anymore well.

It's just another we've got lots of different ways of making money some of is volume and will still continue to do that as in we want a decent volume of readers and you know we also make money through social media through video and this is another kind of lever that we've got.

And where is progress it's now one of the other things which I think these on to the point.

You're making is that we have less control over distributions and we used to sort of decade Google Facebook have been a means of quite strong distribution still very very important part was but the landscapes changed in last decade.

It's less transparent as well.

We don't control distribution.

It's non UK platforms and not level playing field and just was going to talk about me questions about the synagogue attack because that's a really tangible example of the problem in the when that happened which was in a core part of our patch at 28 journalists on the ground and cover eh28 journeys coming out with eight on the ground cross all platforms that Google I'm stuck all content on page a behind fights that we just using agency.

Copy and behind a

Brighton and Hove Council for example so if you if you didn't if you google, does you wouldn't find us that's not a democratic and I'm staying down a bit worried about our ability to be on to these we don't control solicitors is a bit controllers and of course we also discussed on the media show the fact that AI summaries the top of search pages means that some people are not clicking through on to onto use websites.

I just wondered I was you can say that these strategic decisions being taken by your paper and by the owners reach whether it was just a fundamental mistake by the news industry 2025 years ago to give everything away for free because it got people in the habit of being able to access the work that you will produce without paying for it.

I mean it's a really good but we got BBC News country and it provides free consent and it was on Google cos it's got no advertising and and you know clean site so real.

We we had to provide news for free really was no choice but don't get me wrong.

That's still you know the site and the free content to provide still is an important part of our Revenue and will continue to be but what we want to do is offer readers a bit more a bit more choice about what they get well and no just one story that I do want to ask you about and it will connect really are you go about covering Manchester as a city? You'll be well aware that there's been a lot of attention on Piccadilly Gardens in Manchester not least because YouTubers are attracting big audiences by filming and posting aspects of daily life there including drug and alcohol abuse I want to hear your thoughts on this in a moment, but first of all let's hear some of the YouTubers have been covering it people like Charlie vdj.

Idea and cosy Media this is a clip of Charlie veech from a video titled very big trouble in Piccadilly Gardens Manchester

Where is my number one fan sitting with the narcotics and getting ready for the viewers little bit of a there she goes and then the video goes on to show the woman in question who appears to have threatened the YouTuber than being dealt with by the police and I should say we ask Charlie beach to take part in the program, but he finds that the mayor Andy Burnham has been speaking to BBC Radio Manchester about this is from interview last month because he voiced his concerns about content creators.

Who are operating around Piccadilly Gardens the phenomenon that I need to call the people who are filming in and around the City Centre Piccadilly Gardens all the time provoking situations filming.

Making money from what they put up on the their websites and you know them people see the videos and it all my goodness what happened to Manchester this is something that needs addressing in what's a letter from the Manchester Evening News you've actually written about the YouTuber Charlie veech in one of the first pieces that you put behind your new paywall for people who haven't gone through that pay well.

Just give us an idea of the other point that you're making about the work that YouTubers like Charlie be doing what we wanted to do because I was saying a lot YouTubers and tiktok cos I'm covering a lot of live events around what we wanted to do is look at the beach this journey.

He is a guy who thinks he's documenting something is quite charismatic as well and he's based on exploiting targeting vulnerable some of these people as an area where there's quite a lot of people who homeless people live in addiction mental health issues.

Kind of get baited until they react and then that's uploaded for profit.

It's really punching down and there's no contacts.

It reminds me a little bit of Jeremy Kyle sound like a human form of bearbeitung really well on those two fronts at Jeremy Kyle isn't here to reflect on how he goes about his work and we should say that Charlie Beechwood probably not agree with the categorisation of his work as you put it but he's not here to to put them self I just wondered so do you consider this journalism or reporting in in any form even if it's not in the form that they may have taken over the last few years and you know we we playing that we play on YouTube and we're on tiktok and there is some great great YouTubers and they give some great work, but they are unregulated and off and on train during the synagogue attack.

They were on the police cordon film.

Our reporters reporting filming families when they've been told not to and you know just pushing out miss information, so I think the lack of regulation to have the place Corsa is a place that the lack of regulation and the inability of some people to differentiate between balance context or put balance contacts into situation means it's quite dangerous in a situation of world where you know as he did to you got huge amounts of Miss information out there so I worry that people don't offer the difference between the two thank you very much indeed series editor of The Manchester Evening News and let's pick up immediately on the last point that Sarah made their about regulation we can speak to Charlotte Dewar executive of if so, which is the Independent press standards organisation Charlotte thank you very much for becoming on the media show now.

We talk about media regulation reasonably off and on the programme but for people who don't follow Media

How does ipso for example fit in or sit alongside the work that Ofcom does is it your help it? I know if so, which regulates a lot of newspapers and magazines at national and regional that people be familiar with so the Daily Mail the Telegraph of course the Manchester Evening News Vogue huge range of titles and of course, it's not just those titles.

It's also their output so as Sarah Snapchat for London account so that all Falls within its regulation so if it's under editorial control titles we regulate it so if Sarah Leicester's one of her reporters goes down and film something and put it on to the Manchester Evening News YouTube channel that would be something that you would.

To regulate but do you think you should be able to regulate YouTubers like Charlie beach? I would absolutely love Charlie beach be regulated by episode.

I mean I think there is you know I don't think it's about who who is the journalist of reproductive, but I think debates about what is journalism or and if Charlie beach wants to be regulated by an external organisation that will help him to respect the privacy of the individual sees interacting with not be harassing them.

I think that would be a great thing but leaving him to one side of a cell being realistic.

It's hard to imagine a long queue of YouTube the saying if so, I would love to be regulated by you generally regulation is something that people sign up to when they feel window when there's a push to do so I think they're quite broad recognition that there is an issue here and I think I think Sarah's hiding something important if so regulation can be very helpful to help readers understand that you are try.

Proper journalism in that they can trust you and we regularly have titles beating a past you are door.

We've got a new members this year.

We haven't gone out and got them.

They've not been forced to do they want to demonstrate.

Yeah, we're doing something better.

We doing something different were holding ourselves to account.

Do you think there's a danger the traditional Media Legacy media as we sometimes call it is losing a battle for people's attention because YouTube is not some other content creators are coming along and showing our world but doing so in very different ways that more traditional journalism one of my favourite things my job is seeing the incredible innovation that competition within journalism producers in the UK and I think that's absolutely brilliant.

We got so many different organizations and surveying for attention and I think that can lead to problems that can leave the bad behaviour but it also leads to amazing things and I think the traditional Legacy Oliver you want to call them publishers.

Renting and I think they're going to go into that space and I think it's going to be really great to see what they come up with a letter for the Manchester Evening News that's come back to you quickly.

You've been disparaging about the work of some of these YouTubers in Piccadilly Gardens but more broadly do not think they are in some ways teaching traditional Media a lesson that the people want to see their world reported on represented in different ways to perhaps the ways that the Manchester Evening News or I should say the BBC or what's the weather like in cmedia.

Go about it.

What was done in the regional Media to adapt and Ian also alluded to a very generalised picture of the state of regional media and we're making differences and I've no problem with her and really good YouTuber who produces balance content we do the same thing on YouTube and on tiktok.

It's great but

Alex content, this is dating and it's caricaturing the city in a way that isn't isn't accurate and it's it's not the same thing.

I I really hate the way that regional and local Media is betrayed from and often london-centric Media world because not seeing what we are doing day in day out but you say you who do you mean who's End at me personally or you think the london-based medium with a view.

I I I have shouted at the radio Radio 4 and particularly so many times when somebody said oh local Media don't do anything I think about our the campaign change the law for people living in social housing assembly driven by the Manchester Evening News on my colleagues on the echo and the Hillsborough law and he kind of but also the fact that we are on tiktok.

Very very very powerful.

Thanks.

The model is challenge no question but we doing every day and I should say that people want to find the Jordan that you do they can do both through your channels on social media and also on the Manchester Evening News website.

I think just in Defence of the media.

So I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone on the programme say the local Media doesn't do anything and we speak to local and regional Media on a regular basis.

Thank you very much for being with us that Sarah Lester who is the editor of The Manchester Evening News thanks also to Charlotte chief executive of ipso football piracy in the UK is not new in fact.

We talked about it on the media show before we're talking about streaming games without paying for them or paying less for them and saying the right people for them and investigation by the New York Times athletic is showing just how widespread and damaging it's become all-in-one you could say this is him some ways a cultural phenomenon.

Enterprise and potentially a financial crisis for the sport to with me here at the media studio is Adam Levin time he went undercover to access pirated content speaking to people who sell it and brands.

Who use it here are some of them explaining why they do it if I'm not down the pub then I'll be using a fire stick or a website to watch it is so much cheaper than trying to pay for a sky.

Are you paying what no 500 20-year modified fire stick how much you pay you to do it the normal way to be honest to change my country that I'm watching football from and then from there.

I log into a legal site in that country to watch the football in the media student hi Adam give us the scale of this.

Yeah, it's a big issue and the direction of travel towards illegal streaming as you can hear there in in the clips is quite profound at the moment we featured in the

Are you guys Sports at survey? Which we commissioned and they said that 9% of the UK adult population illegally streams over the last 6-months and then another night on top of that said that they weren't sure preferred not to say which is which is part of the Debate but then following up from the documentary actually spoke to people that consume the the podcast That country and subscribers on the athletic and it was far more overwhelming 47% of the 5000 people that we surveyed said that they illegally stream.

So it and how do they perceive that decision do they feel like they're taking money away from the club they support or do they said anything like this is being charged too much.

So we'll get it cheaper to this is a huge issue.

It's one of the main motivating factors.

Why people illegally stream, and I think there is on top of costs.

You know there's the convenience of not having to have so many.

Subscriptions to different platforms which has become a big issue for people and also not wanting to comply as well.

I think people get frustrated with the worth of football they see you know premier League players earning £500,000 a week and things like that.

You know why should I in a cost-of-living crisis have to pay x amount £80 a month? Let's say rather than paying £80 for a year which they can do with easily streaming devices way back when we talked about this previously on the programme we talked about Amazon fire stick being a piece of technology in this story is that is that still the case you very much and it's become a frustration of leagues and broadcasters that it's been sort of enabling ultimately help us understand.

What's the technology that enables so basically that the hardware itself at the fire stick which many people at home will have it isn't illegal at all.

It's the apps that are.

Onto that piece of hardware they call it side-loading so it's people being out to put these apps onto it and then that gives you access to a platform which you can then access all sports often, you know films and everything else as well on top of it and people paying a fraction of the price for it.

Just one thing in your reporting you talk about some people float idea of a direct-to-consumer flex the idea that we were just simply paid directly not via a sports broadcasters is that green given serious consideration? It's part of the conversation.

I went to events couple of months ago leaders where Richard Masters the CEO of the Premier League was talking about it in that in those terms and their thinking about it, but he doesn't see it as something that's going to be happening in the immediate future but it is something that we spoke to people in the documentary about whether they would want it and they said yes because we want to be able to watch.

How we want it next to you? She's from a analysis which provides data and insight for the Global Entertainment Business home now.

Are you surprised by the levels of piracy that Adams found not at all.

We are saying exactly the same rates in our consumer surveys as well.

So for us.

We run surveys among sports fans and half of UK sports brands say that they pirate and the main reason for them.

Is that they are already paying for a legitimate service.

So why should I pay for something else that could be people who might be paying for Sky but then they don't want to pay for TNT or vice versa and so it's like that's how people are persuading themselves out.

It's ok and I was on this idea of Premier flex as it's been coined the idea that we would pay directly to the Premier League for that add up.

How much would we have to pay on a seat and lay a random numbers looking at like I'm not going to go into all of it, but you need subscribers for TNT and Sky and then how much Premier League

Premier League currently makes 1.6 billion pounds a season from just sky and TNT so let's say hypothetically if they want to reach just that broadcast figure and they convert all of the sky unique subscribers.

It would be in the range of 32 to 40 pounds however.

They are never going to convert all of those people so let's say they just convert the Premier League fans of those people numbers Rise pretty quickly to between 46 to £56 and then you have to take into consideration.

That is just making up that broadcast it doesn't take into account their Mark there operations their technical got so actually what you're looking at is anywhere between 70 to £90 a month for the Premier League it's really not all you have to do is look at for the situation like Liga at the moment is hemorrhaging money and then not able to make it so what about looking at the challenge another way the people need to be more concerned that they might get caught.

How is the Premier League and how the authorities going about taking on the people providing these pirated streams and also the people paying for them to the Premier League do you have a specific legal team in house whose role is to try and Crackdown on this but it's a bit of a whack-a-mole situation like you get rid of one another one pops up like in it and this isn't just coming out for UK it will be through other countries globally and so while the Premier League is trying it's battle that's really hard to fight.

Thank you very much for coming and we appreciate it Adam documentaries title the around world of illegal streaming.

It's out now.

Where do people find Adam and I can find podcasts on the Athletic FC the underground world of illegal streaming by Adam Ant on to mimosa from a analysis were going to carry on talking about sport as I mentioned as mentioned at the beginning of the program.

You may well have heard that Gary Lineker has signed a deal with Netflix to present the rest is foot.

Cast during next year's World Cup he is and dancing at this morning alongside his co-host Alan Shearer and Micah Richards for this summer's World Cup that rest is football going to be on Netflix good news guys.

Must be doing something on Netflix like the euros a couple of years ago.

We're going to be doing daily shows throughout the tournament at Aldi based in New York City for the whole thing finally says Micah Richards is happening and this is part of broader move that Netflix is making in the podcast Arena its partnership with Spotify in October for example.

There's this more detail the podcast industry analysts also co-founder of the production company, but no hi mate.

Could have you back on so I feel like this deal represents quite a few bigger trends in the industry.

Yeah, absolutely I mean it's being trailed as a big move in podcasting but I'm no to the press release that the rest of football goal hanger the company that makes it they put out a TV show when I spoke to someone to go hang out.

They said it's a TV show there going to be a shooting in a proper studio in New York City is going to be on Netflix of course.

It's going to be manifestly a TV show but at the same time it represents.

What's happening in podcast where they are becoming more like TV shows and yet at the same time.

They want to keep the conversation about podcast and I want to keep been referred podcast because it tells the order something about the TV show but will it also be done in a way that means I can listen to it and it makes sense because some TV shows about football wouldn't make sense if I couldn't see them.

Yeah, no absolutely not going to I don't believe it from the games.

So it's gonna be purely analytical discussion show it works for in audio.

It works in video as they showed us I believe so it is something that we have seen before but it.

Travel with podcast generally does it mean if somebody does it matter what we're calling it what I'm I'm interested that you say that people holding onto the genre podcast they feel like that say positive even if what is quite close to a regular telly so I think the podcast come to be a sort of toner sort of conversational intimate style that people respond to wear that Joe Rogan on Steven the rest is politics dresses football dress History podcast are toned butt goalhanger the the company that makes all of those the rest of those they're using the term platform agnostic.

They put me off no longer a podcast company they dropped podcast from their name and I've just had a big rebrand and you know they started out as go hang out films.

They became goalhanger podcast there now go hanger and they want to move into a broader space, so that's there to talk about Netflix as well, because it's done a number of interesting things in the last 12-months around sport in particular.

How are you reading? How it's approaching that?

Netflix have a real interest in attracting more gen Z subscribers doing more stuff that engages with the broader Creator ecosphere.

You know they signed this deal with sponsorship.

I think that's good for both companies in terms of strength against YouTube and YouTube with a big players in the space of time social video so I think they're both going out that and I think the Netflix ultimately believe it's offering can be augmented by competing with YouTube in the YouTuber space.

That's become so profitable and so important to viewers.

There's one Media story that's happened this week.

I should have finished by about some media news at closer to home because the journalist and broadcaster.

Misha Glenny has been announced as the new presenter of in our time here on Radio 4.

He's going to start in 2026 and of course.

It'll take the step down after more than 27 years on the programme many Radio 4 listeners will know you should learn in it, but the people who don't give us a quick introduction.

I mean.

Really story career at the BBC and beyond is a sort of historian presenter in a multilingual absolutely fitting into that sort of melvyn, Bragg archetype being able to cover a different stories very associated with geography but I think it'll be able to do all the history and give me go on science.

Why not and I'm always interested in in media products that trends that don't seem to fit into the overall direction of travel and in our time is an audio phenomenon.

Not just in the pre podcast in the podcast here are two bits.

So nicely into that idea.

What a podcast is it is conversational does interrupted guess you can redirect them criticise them.

You know it has that intimacy that I think a lot of podcasts have to try to emulate weatherbell innovate and make it more of a video first social stating that you never know with BBC but I sort of respect that.

Audience of In Our Time and has a very broad audience in terms of different demographics engaging with it.

I think they'd like it for what it is well in our time as you say the new presenter from 2026 Misha Glenny and you should say that it's one of the most popular podcast under £35 which are all its strengths might surprise some people who are listening that tells us that actually younger or says they're not so easy to categorise.

No, I think I'm in history content educational content all of these things have played so well recently, let's go back to goldhanger their big successful was the rest is history that say that show that selling out stadiums to historians historian selling out stadiums it speaks to just like how powerful educational content can be I think it is just the example of that is it something done brilliantly and with a pedigree that goes ahead of itself.

I just one last question more with reference to the rest of football really how much can we?

Learn from the about broader trends from the huge podcast that deals with Netflix do they really point a broader direction of travel or actually almost the podcast we enjoy still remain as audio products we won't have a television or a video iteration.

No, I hope everything is changing and there's a real Scramble to find a ways of making podcast pay you spoke earlier about this idea that the scene of the internet era was allow everything to go out for 3 and then we spent the last two decades trying to you know coats the horse back into the table.

I think the podcast have felt that really aggressively have tried to call and I think this is a sign of things to come we appreciate it that is Nick Hilton from the brush and Company product finishing this edition of the media.

So thanks to all of our guests thanks to you for listening will be back next week.

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