Read this: The battle for Warner Bros, Eurovision controversy latest over Israel participation, festive TV battles and Meta’s pivot

sounds music Radio podcasts my Christmas mix is pure 90s festival stalgia repeat kitchen disco season should Christmas music Katie razzall hello, I'm Rose Atkins this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome to remember back in 2021 when Facebook rebranded as meta Mark Zuckerberg told us he was focused on the metaverse or 4 years on the message has changed will explain why will have the latest on the controversy around the European Eurovision Song Contest as some

Withdraw over Israel's involvement will explore why Netflix and paramount want to buy Warner Brothers and the editor of The Radio Times hear some of you will definitely be in the routine trying it's Christmas Edition but how's it fit into the streaming era of festive viewing we are going to start with news today about a new CEO for Channel 4.

Yes, the broadcast has been looking for Boston Celtics men who is a regular on the media show announcer departure last April so Katie tell us more who is it drum roll.

It is Priya dogra and she will start in March now.

I'm not suggest any except the most acute Media what does Will know her name but she is currently at Sky where she oversees skymedia.

That's the company's advertising sales house is data and Analytics capabilities as well as the development of revenues outside subscription previously she was President and managing director of Warner Brothers Discovery in Europe the Middle East and Africa so good title she also lead local.

Series production for HBO and she started her career as an investment banker and I do understand she has been well-received inside Channel 4 particularly for experience strategy commercial and deal-making to make a list of the issues that we talked about the most on the media shown relatively near the top would be the challenges of public service broadcasters and particular challenges for Channel 4 absolutely my talk about it a lot as you say the act of the decline in linear TV viewing and the shift in audience habits particularly.

Young people is a real problem all the channel for woodturners good.

It's in a good position when it comes to your there's no pressure though of revenue streams on your revenue streams when your main funding comes from advertising we know those revenues have been shrinking Channel 4 is launching his own in-house production company has wild many in the Independent sector but it's also not without its own risks and it pours lol British Public Service broadcasters.

It is under pressure from the big us streamers with talked before about whether there will be.

Can a consolidation of companies here in the UK those questions remain in Jersey at Sky she left her initiative between sky ITV and Channel 4 as well as Chromecast to a platform to open up TV advertising to small businesses and that's all across industry dialogue will be vital for the future survival of these British media company sound when there's always work begin March what time is sunrise in March ok? Well? Hopefully, she'll come on the media service predecessor and explain has done many times well.

That's a new move in the British Media landscape next we're going to talk through all the drama which she may would have been following surrounding Netflix's deal to buy Warner Brothers Discovery and the efforts of paramount skydance to scupper it.

Yes, it is a story involving large some money large personalities and also very large medium businesses that produce vast amounts of the films and TV shows that we'll watch so let's go through the step-by-step on Friday it was announced that.

Pedigree to buy the film studio and streaming businesses of Warner Brothers Discovery 4 72 billion that is 54 billion lb just put the sim contacts Warner Bros Discovery owns a lot of this shows and films that you'll know including Harry Potter and Game of Thrones it also owns the streaming service HBO Max so this deal would put two of the biggest streamers HBO Max and Netflix in the same business, but David Ellison has other ideas.

He is the son of Larry Ellison who co-founded the Tech giant oracle the family has billions and David Ellison Leeds paradise sky dance also a major Media business, and it has it had already been trying to buy net by the company and on Monday paramount for dinner rival bit for the whole of Warner Brothers Discovery that would include CNN so there is an awful lot going on an awful.

Lot to unpack let's get some help first from Natalie jarvie.

Report at the ankle which covers the entertainment industry and Natalie's joining us from

Thanks for being with us on the media show let's start right at the beginning.

What are the strategic reasons for Netflix to want to buy some of Warner Brothers Discovery Netflix is an interesting position because it's already a huge streaming service at the number one streaming service in the United States and in most of the world, but it has struggled to really big significant franchises the kinds of TV shows and movies that can last for many years can lead to people wanting to buy merchandise store movie called with the Warner Brothers Discovery has all of that as you've mentioned they have Harry Potter they have Game of Thrones they have the DC Comic universe that is really valuable for Netflix to be able to ingest into its ecosystem and try to you know used to create even more affinity with the subscriber.

Is that it needs to keep.

So that might be why Netflix wants this deal to happen.

Let's look at it from the other side.

Why are paramount skydance fighting so hard to get a deal done of their own and why do they want all of Warner Bros Discovery in Hollywood right now? You've got players like Netflix which are quite large.

Disney has Disney plus which is also a very large streaming service is one of the middle players.

It needs to get bigger if it's going to be able to compete with the Netflix's and the Disney plus of the world in order to do that it needs to acquire more assets HBO Max streaming services really valuable to them because it would allow them to significantly grow their streaming presents and again that IP is just incredibly Bible for any in Hollywood certainly a studio like paramount is thinking about how can they increase their theatrical film output? How can they make and sell more TV shows and Warner Brothers Discovery

Want to do all that and Natalie you're with us from LA of course the home of Hollywood if there's Netflix deal was to go ahead is self-evidently a very different business to Hollywood's businesses, what impact might have one how the town functions it will have a huge impact on your people are scared.

They're worried about any deal for 10 Brothers Discovery but in particular a deal for Netflix is one of these big tech company is that you know forced its way into Hollywood a few years ago and has now become a dominant player and there are a lot of concerns that Netflix having control of this storied entertainment studio will significantly change how a lot of people do business with companies like HBO and the Warner Brothers studio on the film side the concern is really that Netflix has not prioritised the attic or releases for its films and don't Netflix executives have said that.

Continue to honour the contracts that are currently employs a feeling that ultimately over time.

They will probably look to shorten the amount of time.

They release movies in theatres and only be in theatres for a couple of weeks and then show up on the Netflix streaming service and what that means is that a lot of creatives could lose out on the monetary windfall from having their films distributed theatres longer and make more money at the box office just going into up for a second to say hello.

It's Katie is trolls on in the studio.

You'll outlining they're essentially how Netflix operates in a different way to the traditional Studios well.

That's in film or or TV is that potentially a culture clash.

Do you think for example during the way Netflix and HBO Warner Brothers commission shows I think you've talked to the part of that well and that don't know the head of Netflix has talked about the Gore

Cheeseburger strategy, what is that Netflix has really leaned into making shows that are going to have mass appeal your police procedurals or call dramas with a little bit of Shin of Prestige a very different than how each po has approached making TV in the pass.

They're all about The Prestige they have very small development sleep.

I really want to make the best.

They want to be winning a word as much more volume over and and it will be interesting to see how those two strategies and merged together.

There are a lot of questions still about whether HBO would be allowed to exist as a prestige unit within that the weather will be absorbed into the larger Netflix ecosystem, and this isn't it done deal yet.

Otherwise Larry Ellison wouldn't be making this attempt at this hostile takeover.

What regulatory hurdles do both deals face and where does President Trump fit into all of this would take months to pass regulatory approval United States at the justice department would need to approve the deal and there are concerns about in particular was Netflix anti-trust concerns as I mentioned already the number one streaming service and this would only make it bigger paramount believe that they would have an easier Road to approval because they are smaller player in this would help them compete with players like Netflix pyramid.

Also has zip ties to the trump administration Larry Ellison is a close contact the President Trump's in there is feeling that trump would most likely help that deal along now.

I will put out Netflix has been laying the groundwork behind the scenes to pass regulatorio.

Text friend who's the CEO of Netflix has met with Donald Trump at mar-a-lago and they have been in touch so perhaps that deal will be a little easier than we initially thought let me know about the evenings ok Natalie job.

We thank you so much for portrait the Anchor at all part of the newsletter like and subscribe.

Thank you so much for coming on the media.

Show a little bit deeper the evolution of Netflix Natalie just refer to it see how he famously said in 2013 that it's goal is to become HBO faster than HBO can become us if the deal goes through he makes his wish but you might remember that Netflix from it's early days as a DVD rental service you might remember that was what Netflix was and it has clearly come a long way to tell us more we're joined by David Hayes business as a deadline and author of binge times inside Hollywood's Furious billion dollar battle to take down.

Hello, Dad thank you so much for coming on the program on Netflix as I was saying began life as a DVD rental company, but did the founders always view it as a stepping-stone to Bigger ambitions was our clearing the they're absolutely dead happy with you guys.

It's interesting to just reflect on the name as you said Netflix is designed to be on the internet when they were mailing does DVDs in his Red Envelopes they always envisioned as streaming future.

I'm in the origin story of Netflix we don't have time to get to the whole thing today, but you said take your mind back to the 1990s where everybody was trying to think of what the internet could do could it power payments with PayPal could you call a taxi with it with uber could you know Justin era of exploding innovation across the board and the founders were looking at video rentals which were very mature business not all that sexy.

What dates are away to get people engaged in film and television and and then once they have their data once they had all that passion among their family.

You know that uses they can take the next level in really can go into the streaming era.

So they pivoted to streaming they had that consumer data as you say but didn't have a content library when and why did they tried to make their own original content with everybody else's content strategy and after doing that successfully for about 45 years.

They realise that they needed somewhere to control the rates the real innovation.

You know you can talk about the technology all day long, but they're financial the Invention of the model that is critical to the evolution of Netflix itself.

They were saying why are we know? Why are people paying all these back and deal.

Traditional you would tell salah television show or or make a film and then downstream Natalie was speaking but this really are you know there was this idea that in success iMovie players for months in theatres mix billion dollar to the box office and then growth participants collected revenue from the television same story, but they were basically wanting to pay everybody in success.

You know they call it cost plus model where they would pay for the cost of production plus a little extra to reward the protestants in in in everything you know it wasn't just a new project their model across the board and so by making their own Originals they could not only decide when to roll them out how to draw them don't forget about the bins model and it was the first one to release everything all at once in a House of Cards a full season of the ones but they're also making their own weather in effect.

They were kind of designing there on model so that they were.

With expected costs down the road.

They wouldn't be on the Studio with unusual names today.

We've already heard about the warm a cheeseburger stress to ask you about the ladder rock strategy which we spotted in association with Netflix just explain what that is please.

Yes, it's really something on the entertainment business, but it's really about taking these steps in a pulling yourself up the ladder 1 rung a time through innovation and Netflix has done at masterfully if you really go on way back you of course went into streaming then international the exploded in 2015 a man around the world.

They were saying they will never acquire goods rights.

They gradually got in the sports and probably the most famous pyramid is that they went into advertising the keep saying no we would never do advertising and then when subscriptions can have her bum they decided.

About leather and going to advertising the laddering up is evolving and really we're now seeing biggest ladder up with me a very big wrong if they get to it because of course there are a few hurdles to jump yet.

Thank you very much for taking us to that day.

We really appreciate that David Haye's business editor at deadline author of beans times in Hollywood Furious billion dollar battle to take down Netflix Studios age and less than all the have another book streaming Wars how getting everything we wanted to entertainment forever.

I think I can back you on that one Charlotte what what could this mean? Do you think this whichever way it goes this deal for the services? We subscribe? What does it mean for us consumers and audiences, so I think there's the specifics of this deal and then the general streaming space which I think I mean you spoke about this.

Lot of the shows clearly irie, bundling.

I can solid.

Between services happening particularly the smaller players who at the moment just cannot survive on their own and need to team up with some of the big boys get through.

I haven't seen it was fascinating listening to Natalie earlier the Paramount might be the ones that come on out on top of this just because of that.

I think the politics might go in their favour and so I think that's going to be a very development over the next few months as we see the still pay out because I suspect you're going to have to talk about it a few more times on this show and of course will focus on the streaming walbyoff and sleep in the biggest threat to Netflix Hollywood YouTube but she isn't it yeah, it's such a great point because now so many people are significantly younger than me have that has their prime video thought of course where they go on watch that people don't watch sports games anymore.

They watch the clips on YouTube don't listen to podcast they're watching them on YouTube it's just a

Dominant forces the way that Google has positioned.

It's creator model were created do get rewarded for Success money the other platforms really has played into it and it's just particularly since it's moved onto TV show all apps on the TV's now have YouTube and so since it's made that movies just become such a dominant force and I think that's why with Netflix do things like make deals with the ringer Gary Lineker's gold hangers so that they're putting podcast on Netflix as well to try compete with YouTube absolutely I know you going to stay with us for the rest of the program, but thanks for the moment.

I'm mad and we discuss the future of television, let's bring in someone from a publication has been guiding us through what to watch for a very very long time especially Christmas it with us in the studio is shamlo brand editor of The Radio Times welcome, Shane thank you.

I'm curious when you're making the Christmas Radio Times are you aware.

She's a little more than a magazine that you're actually making something that sits within the broader culture around the holiday season well some people we seem to take two weeks off at Christmas it wasn't until 1969 when we had our first ever Christmas double that that sort of things started to happen because you won't remember because you have Christmas day, was you can go and watch a football match you could use public transport.

You know it wasn't it was no different really from from from a Sunday in some respects.

So once Christmas really took hold with Christmas television and all the rest.

That's what you seem to like ourselves in with our families for the radio Times this is a 2-week of fair, but I wonder if your forgive me being a little blunt does it still sell what is it still selling the same way that it used to but nothing's the same way.

I'm sure you know film companies would like to sell film tickets to wear these in the night.

Same with record company 1990s 1988 Guinness book of records for the largest sale of a British magazine got 11310 think it was OK that is impressive and now it's not so many but we're still the most who is on the cover.

It was it was a lovely illustration of a of a plant that we put together inside the magazine we got all the stars are on telly to be various parts in a pantomime some people wrote in and said I have this there is no pantomime with all these people in it even for that.

They will never be and I just wanted one of the things about the radio times did all open it up and we would consider how we might spend of you in time on Christmas Day in particular across the period more broadly, but is that battle for our attention particularly on Christmas day as fierce as it once was all of the broadcasters in the streamers in a stepped away from that little bit bad.

Such a big prize at stake yes, you no longer one of the days where you had to have Christmas dinner over because the Queen's Speech was going to be on Dead on three or whatever now you can The King's Speech whenever you want.

So yes it it has changed but no this is the only time really other than sporting events and I say royal best births deaths and marriages that we'll sit together as a family you know so it's still really important and thinking about that family and the younger people in that family.

Is there anything that the schedule this year tell us in your the about search for younger viewers viewers as in teenagers or young of you as in you know anyone with my younger people watching.

Where is the BBC iTV Channel 4 whatever but they're happy.

I think you're right.

There'll be a lot of YouTube being watched over Christmas period but I think on the main days on Christmas day and Boxing Day there.

Propensity for young people to have to fall in line, and what's the programs if that's call the midwife Amanda London that will be the case they do you have any practical tips for people to use the magazine because in Times Gone By was relatively straightforward you look at a small number of broadcasters and take your pick now.

You can't list everything really there is too much choice.

So we really only find the things and have the channels in the magazine that we think our readers are going to be particularly interested in there is no substitute for getting hold of it and here's your coffee or are you just getting involved make sure you get the programme had it I don't know what I mean.

I don't mean to be critical of this heavy tone that you've just passed the pub.

You're saying there's no alternative but there is an alternative.

Is the EPG on RTV there's the apps which offer is lots of content weather on our phones or on television is social media offering Us guide you are essentially offering something that is in a competition for how we select because we watching everything and we do what we've been doing for over 100 years we tell you where is any good and that's the difference only people that do highlighter pens is the Battle for Christmas to UK broadcasters.

I think if you spoke to any broadcast broadcast things that they love to win Christmas day.

Love to be able to put that presents outside this program.

Exit million.

We did it last year.

Didn't they all the top 10 shows by Gavin and Stacey where they made a huge crush on how many people got that I mean the point.

What we watch live in together is such an important one because the streaming era has told me that it is basically only live sport and massive news events, but there is something I think still about when was night when you manage to get rid of the rest of the family to watching you know exactly what you want to watch because of course you've looked up where it is on the radio times does the fact that we can watch almost everything back make the decisions that the schedulers make a little less important because one of the experiences.

We would all have would be with get the radio Times or whatever we were reading out like that films up against that film and you have to decide if you're going to record it whatever but if you didn't want to record it you had to make a choice You don't so much have to do that anymore and so the schedules perhaps matter and little less.

I wish the schedule this year's still with the only country really that has competitive scheduling.

They don't reveal are just reach other until the last possible moment.

I thought we were going to get some fencing.

A little earlier, but no they still they still really do decide when they going to do at the last minute, so yeah look most broadcasters now are streamers as well in case anyone's wondering 290 pages is watching his colleagues are produced with on the very last page Dame Mary Berry a very merry Christmas the headline Leeds festival.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Grandad is great grandad is the radio x thank you so much and as I said that you're saying now.

Let's change the date today after months of controversy with finding out which countries are going to compete in the Eurovision Song Contest next year several have already withdrawn because they're opposed to Israel participating writing both political actions and concerns about voting integrity and with the line up now reduced and broadcasters debating whether to show the contest at all.

What does this mean for your revision future?

BBC music reporter Mark Savage joined us now hello Malcolm before you tell us because I think there has been some breaking news on this in the last few minutes.

Just audiences who don't know just briefly recap.

What happened so far in this role, will have been tension brewing over Israel's participation in the Eurovision Song Contest for the last 2 years ever since those deadly the tax office in October 2023 and Israel's subsequent military action in Gaza which has had a death toll of of more than 70000 people a lot of countries objected to Sharon a stage with Israel but they've also directed to the situation around Eurovision where protesters both inside the arena and outside it have threatened the security of some of the it all came to a head in a meeting of the EU the European broadcasting Union the organisers the contest in Switzerland last in Geneva last week.

Some countries including Spain asked for a vote on whether or not Israel should be allowed to stay in the competition that was turned down and as a result for countries almost immediately pulled out the fact that the issued a press release before the eBay you can even say that the meeting had finished and just in the last 15 minutes or so we've learnt that those were countries that leatherman's Slovenia Spain have been joined by fifth which is Iceland broadcaster.

There.

Are you there? So the complex matter of Israel's inclusion how to create the disability and damage the contests reputation it says public reactions to after decision to let Israel compete and on that basis.

They said their presents Iceland's presents in the end of next year.

We've been either a source of Joy which broadcast broadcast it's quite an emotional statement that shows I hide the steaks are in this disagreement.

Just before we carry on that those figures of £70,000.

Has been killed figures that come from the territory to run health ministry.

Do we think Mark that Iceland is it another deadline is today? Are we expect any other countries to pull out a head of the end of today or do you think that's it 5 will be hanging in the balance was confirmed earlier today that they would take part so we think they will not be 34 countries taking part in Eurovision next year and actually it's only a net loss of 2 because earlier in the year before all the controversy blew up three countries unless they were coming back to the Eurovision after a period of absence that's Moldova Romania and I forgot the third but yeah, it will not be 34 next year instead of the 36.

That's a part in 2025 and is there a financial cost then and terms of Lost advertising revenue for some Media outlets absolutely.

Countries Eurovision is one of those events that draws audiences the size of sports events and they sell advertising around in the UK we don't see that because the BBC advertising and we get lots of very strange Skechers in the place of adverts should go but yeah, you know in Ireland they're not going to show your revision at all.

We think which may not be able to sell any advertising around it and also the participating broadcasters my face increased costs because Spain he was one of the countries that have pulled out.

They are one of the Big Five countries the people that give the most money to the staging of Eurovision the remaining competitors are going to have to absorb some of that cost by the markets in the Studio with Katie I wanted to ask you as well about the broadcaster in Israel and how the eu's relationship with that broadcaster is playing into this story.

That is a really key factor that something that people were very concerned.

Play summit meeting in Geneva last week because can is an independent broadcaster.

It is often clashed with the Netanyahu government in Israel and fact even in the in the hours after the decision to let is will continue in the contest was made last week.

They broadcast an interview with a former winner Donna international.

He was very critical of the government and the position that they put it is raining in terms of its international image and its participation in Eurovision Chelsea criticised at the company's who had boy called next year's contest that was the cameras independent and the EU is very very very of damaging that relationship because for example in 2017 the van is really government indicated it wanted to model x news operation and one of the reasons that the plans were abandoned was the EU insisted the Independent use was a condition for can hosting the 29th.

Eurovision Song Contest so there are fears that is Israel's broadcaster was kicked out of Eurovision then it could be the problem for press freedom within the country and finally mother how many different elements are they story I also wanted to ask you about the integrity of the public vote because there's also been screwed me on this now.

It's just say there's always discussion around her voting works in your part of the experience of watching it, but why there a particular Focus this time on the integrity of the public vote for there was a feeling after this year's contests that the really government to try to tip the scales in the favour of their contestant eaten goal and there was a government from the campaign on social media and I'm YouTube to encourage people outside of Israel to use 20 of devote to their disposal to vote for Eden Collins song which is called hurricane and in the end, that is what happened at Israel topped the public votes and the only reason I didn't win the contest over.

The jury's scored that song much lower night Israel says that it was acting within the rules of the competition and the EU agrees with that position, but at the Summit meeting last week or something new rules introduced and voted on by the member states to tighten up the voting so now the public will only get 20 instead of 20 in the 2026 contest contestants will not be allowed to take part in any third-party advertising campaigns including those organised by government and they will introduce new technology to identify patterns and Bloc voting that may suggest that have been manipulated against my ma' thank you very much indeed for take you through all of that that's BBC News reporter Mark Savage now.

Do you remember this time for us to adopt a new company brand to encompass everything that we do is to reflect who we are and what we hope to build I am proud to.

The starting today our company is now that was Mark Zuckerberg back in 2021 when he rebranded the company changing its name from Facebook to meta can't promise the metaverse a future of virtual world access through headsets and glasses well since 10:0 billions of dollars into the project but with it has to be said limited success and now the company is cutting it's mettaverse budget by nearly a third and shifting Focus and funds to artificial intelligence save course that raises the question whether this is the end the mettaverse dream or simply a slight tweak to the overall strategy well, we are joining now in the studio by Alex hern AI correspondent at The Economist and play Henry's of being with us through the program author of streaming was Alex my Facebook rebranded as matter.

What was the Vision behind the matter? Why did it so much attention to the pub?

Vision as articulated by Mark Zuckerberg was that this was the future of social networking that we had until then been communicating through our phones and text and images and increasing the evening on video but the future would be virtual spaces that we would access through VR headsets at the time.

It was a bold push.

I think one of the subtext here is it will Desire from Zuckerberg to take a leadership position Facebook at the time was on the back foot to tiktok and if you actually look at the company's history hadn't had a homegrown success Facebook Instagram is an acquisition WhatsApp with an acquisition the company have made some attempt to do things internally but they haven't played out and this was there big attempt to create the future rather than simply buying it in millions into billions even what did they actually produce with all those investment what what came out of this?

Impressive tech they had already acquired Oculus virtual reality company and what they did was they built unquestionably some of the most advanced virtual reality technology on the today the now meta quest VR headsets are really really good headsets you put them on day.

I mean your grading on a curve here because I'm not a big luxury answer when I say things like they don't hurt your eyes very much and your neck feels mostly good after wearing for an hour this feels like a robot getting a bit into why I think they're quite capture the public's because you're not the only one thinking that the audience interest is not there is that what's so this thing when metal rebranded in 21 The Economist wrote that it was just video games that applications like ROBLOX and fortnite demonstrate that there's a kernel of Truth people do want to hang out in Virtual spaces.

It seems want clunky physical expensive hardware to do it and also so far there mostly young people.

Do you think then these budget cuts are significant do they suggest that Mark Zuckerberg the abandoning the letterbox know he still very much believes in this.

It's a personal passion project for him and I think he would love to keep it ticking over to please the markets in after there's no downsides to give me taking over but he wants to build the metaverse one day but now though.

This is reallocated money to stuff that will actually pay off in 20-years rather than decades entertainment industry part of you that we started the programme talking about these big possible deals to Netflix and Netflix and Warner Brothers is there an entertainment dimension to this does the mettaverse extend the entertainment options for us if done in a way that we all adopt but I think that's part of the aim and part of the desire from Alex has pointed out but also apple.

Is vision pro headsets all of that is you know in part the ways we can consume entertainment the thing for me that I've always struggled with that the metaverse is I actually think people realise I quite like being in the real world at least quite a bit of the time.

We are all having this conversation here in the same room and that's why the night.

I'm not sure I'd rather be sitting with a headset on and a digitised version of Katie talking to me or digitised.

What year did the first initial presentation about this his pictures you can sit in a room great but if the four of us couldn't be in a room is technology Alex for the lowest or most experienced being in the room as close as we're going to get at least remember the time that that was late 2021.

We had gone a bit mad.

Yeah, I think and it's really important mettaverse is we're all experiencing videoconferencing as a daily part of our life.

We are that we haven't done previously.

I'm going to bed now because of impossible from the fact that it was at the end of what for many people is 2 years many people still you know not see my people in person as they were before you could convince yourself in the run-up to this launch that this was the future that people would forever not hang out in a physical space as much as they had been previously but I also think that I am you're totally right Alex but I also think that same period of time show does actually going to the cinema and seeing a film maybe with a couple of friends on a big screen is preferable to put on a headset for 2-hours and I would like to watch wicked for good on her head, so I don't have to move my head again.

It's so long, but it's you know I think that did prove why we like going to the cinema to the theatre listening to music going to a gig but I'm interested listening to both of you.

You're repeatedly emphasising the kit that we need to use to access.

We know the the kit that were offered changes you know the mobile phones.

We were first offered in the late 90s early notice is not the same as the ones now so if the kids evolved and became more comfortable more usable perhaps some of these reservations you both have word would disappear.

So this is the other part of what metro is doing they're not just pulling this investment and returning it to the shower very allocating and what they're trying to do is take some research and development that they have pulled off from their headset division and shift it to stuff that is useful now and can still lead to advances in the future, please the dog and learning from virtual reality to mixed augmented reality there gold Now is not to build headsets that lock you away from the real world, but to build glasses that can overlay information on them.

We have some nice Ray-Bans and Oakley collaborations that let you speak to an AI assistant while you're wearing them the goal is to build more and more technology into those and build them out into something that.

Hopefully connect you back to the nurse in the future.

Do you think what has happened this huge spending on the matter of us, do you think it has damaged metals credibility or do you think AI in the end? She helped Mark Zuckerberg metaverse goal if you like? I think it's certainly made clear that m is a company with one person in charge and where that money goes depends entirely on what Mark Zuckerberg once this was not public market baying for a mettaverse.

This was one man who hold the ctrl and sharing the company deciding to invest 70 billion dollars.

He personally really wanted to build whether this makes.

You trust Mark Zuckerberg's capital allocation prowess less than you did before I think you can't come out more confident that he's making good cause write the question is whether this was bad luck someone ahead of their time or actually more fundamental problem with Mark Zuckerberg ability to see where his own industry is going.

Damaged by this well.

I I think they are at least Mark Zuckerberg is personally because I mean he renamed the company for the technology that it appears not very many people want that's a very big statement and it was a very big Movie made and I think it was quite a lot a lot about how Mark Zuckerberg and perhaps the Silicon Valley Bros more.

Generally see well compared to how the rest of us do and I do think it has damaged his credibility of bit to have thrown all this money at it to rebranded his whole company from when you into this thing that he's not having to walk back on not that you know in real terms.

It's not that long ago since I did this.

I just spoke to person really told Bloomberg within overall reality Labs portfolio, we are shifting some of our investment from mettaverse towards a eyeglasses and wearables given the momentum there.

We aren't planning any broader changes than that which ties in with what you have.

A few seconds we've got some listeners will be going but what about Google Glass Google try this years ago and no one wanted to use it was different this time was different this time is the fireworks it's that simple you can terminate a headset now and speak with something that can genuinely help answer questions about what's in front of it Google Glass was a clunky product that was a head of its time.

Just didn't satisfy anyway.

Thank you so much.

You're going to have to end it there Alex heard from The Economist and Charlotte Henry author of streaming Wars thanks for coming on the programme.

Yes, thanks to Alex next Charlotte indeed.

Thanks to all of our guests and thank you very much indeed to all of you for listening but for me and from Katie that is alright.

I'm up.

Thank you very much for being with us.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Hi, then Katie razzall BBC Radio 4 from the world.

This is anatomy of a cancellation.

I'm a symbol of a particular time and extreme version of cancel culture and teacher Kate clanchy.

Have 30 years teaching career which was initially praised but later other said it was racist and deeply problematic the language and this book is sodium unjustified cancellation long overdue Reckoning subscribe to shadow world anatomy of a cancellation on BBC sounds.