Read this: Jeremy Vine’s legal battle, Bondi Beach attack coverage, , BBC charter renewal pressures, Trump’s $5bn lawsuit and micro

Sounds music Radio podcasts my Christmas mix is pure 90s festival salja repeat kitchen disco season should Christmas music and recycling this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome well Katie's off today.

So it will be me you and our guests for the next 40 minutes or so Jeremy Vine Hill talk to us about online abuse from the former footballer.

Joey Barton the lead to Barton receiving a suspended prison sentence a journalist from the Sydney Morning Herald will describe the challenge.

The covering the Bondi beach attack also the process around the renewal of the BBC charter has formally begun on assess the options for it's future funding will also get the legal briefing from the US President Trump Sue's the BBC four five Billion dollars, and we're going to learn about the rise and rise of micro dramas, the first earlier this the former footballer.

Joey Barton was given a suspended prison sentence for social media post about the broadcaster.

Jeremy Vine and TV football pundits Lucy Ward and any Aluko he been found guilty of grossly offensive electronic communications with intent to cause distress or anxiety he compared Waterloo CO2 serial killers Fred and Rose West he repeatedly called Jeremy Vine bike nonce and also said if you see this fellow by a primary school call 999 also relevant last year.

Joey Barton paid Jeremy Vine £75,000 in damages.

Defamation and harassment together with his legal costs as a civil action was settled so Jeremy Vine presenters Channel 5 programme in the morning his Radio 2 programme from midday.

He came into the movie show studio earlier on and I Began by asking him for his reaction to the news that Joey Barton plan to appeal is conviction.

I don't you know I have got to ask a friend about our appeal to a man standing is you need to have some new evidence or something or you need to prove that the judge made a cock-up but listen if Joey wants to to try and work the system to his advantage that's fine.

It doesn't sit very well with all his please and mitigation and I'm sorry and I made a terrible mistake and I'll never do it again.

It's hard if you then say oh by the way I wasn't on a personal level I saw you on your Channel 5 programme saying I hope I don't have to speak to speak about him again and of course an appeal may mean that you very much do I'm here.

Resume the word J Barton so I must be about to speak about him again and the answer is when you when you asked me to do it because I thought you know what I shouldn't be inviting over this.

I did go and you know because I thought I don't want to be cowed by somebody who just thinks you can just throw filth people and they just skull I'm going to actually go for it and if I have to sell my house to pursue the guy I will and then the police got involved.

He got a criminal conviction as well and I'm interested.

Did you imagine when you decided to Sue for libel that this would end up as a criminal I didn't have the time imagine it my first.

Thought is if you so obviously what happens it pains me to say but let's just do the the background here.

I he was attacking these female football commentators.

I saw riding on this side by making a comment about whether he was possibly suffering from a brain injury that probably wasn't very wise of me.

He then began this whole thing about paedophile and

Anyway at that time.

I thought well, I can't be sure.

There's a criminal offence though because with the law in this is so unclear so I thought I'm going to have to fight ago lovely solicitor in Devon called you lift.

I think I've got one for you and you know it's the most slam don't lie but it's a quickest way to lose your house.

Is there 3 million have your name on your account and calls him at the paedophile mean you might as well be wanting to instantly had a one in the end.

I got any money.

I would have ended up owning his house and he might have ended up having to pay me rent which have been an extraordinary situation, so no right at the beginning.

I thought this is liable.

I thought I'd go as far as I can the contractor and then I won he apologised although in a very childish way dropped an apology under Twitter 10 minutes before the election result last year so we knew that I would have my mind on other things and then a course you said I'm not paying the cost to me and to take out a separate case on the cost so the cost to him all up in my case with £600,000.

And that's comes from him, because that's what he said in a criminal trial at the end of my liver case documents two-and-a-half in bear in mind I got town abuse from Random is on social media because of what he said about me and I just thought I might as well.

Go to my local police force so I rang up the local police station in Hounslow West London who are part of the mate and I said look I'm putting this into your it's a complaint from me.

This is criminal but you'll be the judge and then months later Cheshire police said alright.

We got a date for the trial and I'm alright ok.

So they really want to clarify the law on this the media posting question that Joey Barton post about you were on X it's ended up doing for the courts a matter for the police were you satisfied with the way the platform that with that because they are you actually if the platforms did more you wouldn't necessarily need the police and the courts to be as involved.

I was absolutely not satisfied and not only that has stalker incident with a guy who.

YouTube channel and he was putting out massive labels against about that doesn't people every night for about 3040 minutes and YouTube take that you don't care and I did have a little girl with my my lovely lawyer Judith I said to her look let's just see if we can get it just put the brightness on Twitter as if you write a letter from Devon and I can't very cross with you and we get you have some massively expensive letterhead back from some international lawyers use a look we got 15 billion as going onto eggs.

How do you what does the police they and they clearly were up for a fight and in the end? They been told I think the legislation allows the platform to not have responsibility and that's nuts.

How do you expect them to police if you just have the moderators but moderators would be human and also difficult if I say look someone says something about me.

That's a lie.

I had a 16-oz stolen from a friend's memorial service.

Live in order for them to moderate that they need to hear it's quite complicated for me to say that's not true because so in the end.

I just let it all go and it is just basically like a toilet where the broken and it's coming out under the door during the trial it heard the bottom of cross the line between free speech and a crime and evidently he's been convicted.

So that was the case.

How have you reacted to those who argue? Yes, of course what he said was hugely offensive but we shouldn't be sending people to prison for post on social media well, the first thing to say is this clearly what he did was wrong and he needed to be punished and therefore I went I didn't go for the criminal option initially I went for libel now your argument fine if everyone can take a libel case out but they can't so you've got to have another recourse and that's the criminal law the second thing is I might have been quite sympathy with this argument.

That is just words.

Don't matter until an incident in I think it was 2016 and basically there was a whole load of Miss information online about Hillary Clinton's campaign but it was run by secret paedophiles and they were all based in a pizza restaurant in Washington DC you will have seen the Story Again and but different items on the menu were code for different children.

You could order up.

Thank you.

Just ignoring it's just obviously right and then one day a guy walks into the pizza restaurant with a rifle and that's the point but when you use these words it drives hatred and it needs one person with a knife and shine you anyway, what Barton said about me will have put me in danger without any question at all.

Did it make you consider being a public figure make you want to retreat such a good question because I do think that stalking is the industrial disease of broadcasting without the question.

I've had them before I had notices.

Count as a stalker but I had to other one interesting me an analogue stalker and one a digital stork and I think the digital one was worse know I love you too much.

I love you and I love my audience and 99.9% of my audience is lovely and when I meet people.

I just is the most beautiful thing to feel a connection however the 0.01% which is better than others in Times Gone By would have been sitting on a wall outside the village and being forced to make out the stables now.

They got a YouTube channel, so they can spread their poison and Twitter's the thing actually which has become like a kind of cancer almost it is horrific on there.

I don't go there though.

I look I was looking before I came in the studio and you're still active on it not wait.

Maybe I posted once or twice a week.

I did post this morning.

Just thinking about this interview my posts only that but because newspapers down in the whole piece of an instant answers and you might be close to having any money so.

But now I stay off it a bit but I think that we got it confused free speech is beach and we need to break the connection, but do you think what you have done and the others involved in this trial do you think that has offered this country of a positive step towards what you're trying to achieve? Well.

I think I think we we've learned now that you will be in danger of losing your house if you call an entirely innocent person a peadophile anything else from a named account with 3 million followers.

That's it.

Hopefully won't happen to anyone else again and I'm very glad I took that case regarding the criminal trial with 330 defence against three victims myself any Aluko Lucy Ward and any and Lucy's Cakes for different there about abuse that caused the mince distress and I think you've got a grade.

Is there and where that you know you're looking at where the line is what's criminal was what's mockery? What is idiotic? What's malicious and it the judge decided and when I was in the Wi-Fi look at the jury to have them and I thought half of them are going to the young man and I'll be there.

I'll be sorted in kind of things but should be posted what he wants and they didn't and that's quite tell me that young people don't want to live in Barton's world another is a clear distinction between what Joey Barton did and a lot of the other abuse that you and many public figures will receive on social media recently you said you were going to stop posting cycling content.

I stop posting a lot of cycling contact you said the troll in just got too bad and you wear on the sea the anger.

They generated genuinely upset me to the the critics of your cycling content you still think that you still posting not really not really.

Three or 4 videos a week where I was saying I was in danger because of this or that driver.

I'm now on substack doing some 1000 Ways to stay safe on a bicycle which is completely different.

If not it doesn't cause any trolling whatsoever I cycling contact made some people think you were a game because they're you were taking a strong position on one issue, when they thought why is taking a strong position on this.

I'm going to take a strong position on what I think about him.

You know what soon as we split the room and then ask the audience goes let me know this again, but you know the factors that cycling cyclist of the last outgroup that you seem to be allowed to hate in our Society and all I want to do is get to work without dying.

It's not much to ask you know why they where is there a place called Park Lane in London that's ridiculous, so I don't know she got me going off on one now, but I'm not really looking to explore the rights and wrongs of your position on cycling I suppose what I'm trying to get is do you feel that by being strident on the issue of cycle?

Is on piano much just in you shouldn't the people who say strident when when they drive cars that as soon as somebody says I'd rather not die on my way to work.

I don't want to die on my way to unless you ask if you're being passionate about cycling and cycle safety.

Do you think that that along with the criticisms that you had of some people on that issue made others can't and I'm not saying they should have done but made others conclude well this guy is clearly looking for arguments online or looking to put particular perspective so what we gonna do you become a a Focus if you like some people's anger maybe so and I think that's a bit of that is must because one thing I noticed when I would post a cycle video in the later stages.

I was getting a farmer in Alaska what is this crap doing on my feet and I'm thinking how is he seen me if he's not following me and he's been algorithm, but I must has Andy

And everytime I do a cycling video bed dropping it in front of this farmer.

So he's getting so I know it's crazy, but that's how engagement funding for literally farming and I had her by the time.

I stop my cycle.

I had 100 million views or more.

I had so many so that should be quite a successful thing, but it turned out to be giving me grief and by the way my cycle bicycle is stolen as well and I mean I heard somebody say you know I've just turned up.

I've been this is a tweet.

I have been thinking about the glories of the British Empire all morning.

Goodnight ca Jeremy Vine cycling video we would be the great country.

We are where we left the specimen is like him and then someone else then comes in behind me and sit behind that person it says he's so empty van.

I bet is why is getting bang left right and centre by van driver and I'm looking at this day off today.

I think you are really rather and so how do you compare your experience of a very high profile figure in?

Yeah now with the high-profile figure in the media.

You were 20 years ago.

How does the experiences of of then and now compare initially seem to be wonderful in that gave my audience what you call a return path? What does in touch obviously we talked about Twitter stroke ex has been invaded by hatred and stuff.

I think general you're just we'll probably just more responsive.

I think you would you be the same you're still asking a question and I just said something is gonna blow up on Instagram yeah.

You're thinking a lot more carefully about what you doing what you say that may be a good thing.

I don't wanna be to God is I think in the end broadcasting all about being authentic and you don't want to change who you are you now have the spotlight of every single social media channel and I'm quite tempted to come off at one of my listeners rang the other day and this is a comment.

I think I'm going to remember the rest of my life.

He said the thing is.

Social media is the new asbestos and in 20-years time they're going to be ripping it out of walls and ceilings and that's so true goodness now on social media because you are there for the moment Ewan opinions as of course you're well within your rights to do but I wonder if in reason you're all well within because you are a Radio 2 presenter, but you're also a Channel 5 presenter.

You've got a series of books at the moment.

You're doing an awful.

Lot of things and as such you're not bound by the same impartiality rules as you think you might think I am even when I'm walking down the street.

Yeah.

Yeah, of course I can't sell the Waverley newsagent stop and green criticism of how Donald Trump posted about the death of Rob Ryan that's not a possibility.

Let me just say it was disgusting what he said you can say that to you.

I don't know if I could always you mean in terms.

Just to say Amen line.

Dead murdered by his son.

Probably got murdered by trump and we have to check with the other side these things.

I think I couldn't say that but do you think I'll get cancelled for that? I think the thing is this true is about who you really are Rose and it for all that we got all these rules you've got to be true to who you are.

So if you think it's disgusting and you don't see the sun back of trophy so we have to be a bit careful because I think I would think of my job is to be to report on what a kerb.

Not necessarily to add adjectives or descriptions.

That's for the others to really really so when you see a newsreader and they're talking about let's say the murder of child on the news and they clearly have got something else on her mind and they move on really quickly and a sound like a robot do not get offended by that.

Do you not want to think this newsreader cares about because in the end.

I think we can't have you.

But we can have values and if we don't have values with sharks.

God you one last thing because I know you've got to go to your Radio 2 programme you do Radio 2 Channel 5 where you come off there.

I think 45 minutes before you go on air on really well, and I don't know where that leave at 10:30, but you didn't send you ok.

You've got your books which you've committed to very serious you got your sub stack you forgot your Instagram you got lots of social media activity.

What's driving you a lovely family you know what's what's your what's your what are you hoping to achieve when you're committing all of these different things in the media broadcasters like I said.

I've always ask me the same as the broadcast this question is it like that? I would ask you the same my friend.

I can't really answer that because we lack as you know all self-awareness present is a horrifically unself aware, so we won't know what's driving us until the day we stopped doing it.

I mean you remember lovely old David Frost he was coming in to BBC Television Centre to do his show and it was a sunny day in the summer and he was 75 or whatever and I said David why do you still do it and he said I've got to make hay while the sun shines and I thought yeah, I have that ticking over in my head as well.

You know and a cruise ship will make you after dinner speech you know so I don't think we can yeah.

I can't leave you completely throw me the easiest question I find the hardest to answer is why am I doing this? Why don't you know this time rush through because I like that thing was that a red light I like that.

You got another red light calling your name on very very soon.

So I'm going to let you go Jeremy

How much for making time for us? Thank you so much.

Thank you very much indeed to Jeremy Vine for speaking to me earlier and Jeremy shows are on Radio 2 and on Channel 5 show return to Australia and the Bondi beach attack in Sydney as I'm sure you know gunman.

Opened fire on a celebration of Hanukkah killing 15 people as details started to come through jealous of the Sydney Morning Herald began the work of covering a mass shooting in a place that they know intimately it posed a number of challenges is a senior writer at the cinema.

I spoke to her a little earlier and asked about the first editorial decisions that they needed to take one of the first ones.

We've had a frame that so whether or not your friend as an anti-semitic attack very much to look like an any sneak attack as soon as we had details and as soon as we knew that they had been a large about celebration on with you know cute all the details of come out.

We had to kind of hold back on that and obviously as well.

It looked there were various details.

I suppose about the identity of the man that made it look as though you might surmise that they were Islamic terrorists and we have to hold back from making that assumption or even from join that starts really fed up to the reader of the you are because it was our place to do so and the other things naming the alleged perpetrators.

So their names now and their names were on in particular the younger Pope died at the Somme of the father-son duo duo he was named on social media and he's apparently his driver's licence was being such that it by someone on social media well before his name is confirmed by the police say the word list of main decisions and bestest resourcing want to send you to ponder and on that issue of how to describe the attack and how to categorise it.

Would you be waiting for guidance from the authorities on that or would that be something there?

You and your editors would be comfortable taking a decision on based on the available information that you had I think giving the you know the situation in Australia as in mini.

I think Western countries around issues of anti-semitism and issues that look like that have to do with the exploitation of the conflict in association with you and so difficult that it's not something that we would make a decision about I think independent of the authorities so we have had a terror attacks in in Australia before we actually not much more than a year ago.

We had a sort of mass and mass killing actually in Bondi Junction in a in a shopping centre.

That was sort of a guy who is really mentally unwell with potato and attack you know it was very difficult tonight but with some sort of religious motivation or Islamic motivation so I think the

Tickly night early hours to hold back and to wait 2 week 10 facts right before we report anything to feel different and in terms of reporting what was happening definitively know you're trying to find out exactly what happened you live cause be acutely aware that online lots of videos lots of images lots of accounts as circulating you feel pressure given the some of your reader's some of your audience will be seeing all that information to acknowledge it or two in some way describe the difference between your reporting and what people babysitting online.

Yeah, we were increasingly.

We do that because he's say happened so quickly and we're particularly those incredibly quickly with information and it goes viral very quickly we pay attention to what's happening online and what people might be consuming or the information.

They might be apprehending online and try to reconcile that I suppose with what we can and can't.

At that moment so at least we sort of being transparent because as he would know there's increasingly to buy between what the mainstream Media source of doesn't is and what happens on social media and dad's office report is to try to have to bring in all the information but also to give a context and to verify before we Push It Forward you talk about verifying the concept that you're circulating online if there was say one particular video which you could see was being widely shared would you have specialist with verify that or would that fall to one of the report? Is he working on Story how do you go about the witch videos in particular? You're gonna share with your audience will we had my videos onto the Italian collecting all the videos of this event because there's so many people can someone you know if I got an iPhone ever so much for that was a big job in The Newsroom particularly on the Monday when all of that.

You know there was a real tsunami moving images from the

And then yeah that was specialist reports for assigned to it and you know where the particular incidents.

Everyone was saying the incident of tackling one that was so terrified.

I'm pretty quickly and it was also we also have had a few different angles or perspectives on that particular sort of action and further down a track like an ensuing had different your hero.

Sorry seem different little incidents where particular people like a couple trying to check the gammon and and then we've seen also the police and another guy who keeps the going away.

They all these are also aspects where ordinary citizens and lace tried to tackle can't write the government so we had to sort of verify all of those vs.

From the different angles and one of the videos actually weirdly enough popped up on one of the Chinese social media websites and that sort of made its way into this again.

It has to be there before.

I bet I think I'm there's a sheet hunger for those particular store is the other side of his course.

It's all the video that we don't show and all of the following City steak to shopping publish and there's all sorts of interim measure with some of the top parts for the plank is this thing called that the Jacqueline maley from the Sydney Morning Herald now as we have done a lot in recent weeks on the media.

Show we have to talk about the BBC in a minute will hear about President Trump's The Corporation first.

What's called the charter renewal process is underway.

I'm going to learn about that with the help of Alex barber Media correspondent at the Times Alex welcome back onto the media show the time but people who aren't following this in detail.

Just tell us what the charter renewal process is yes, it's basically what is is a big.

Patient involving the public involving stakeholders and the BBC in cells designed to set out what the future of the BBC should look like for the next decade in 2028.

What are some of the things are going to consider there going to be looking at how it continues as a trusted institution how it's governed you know it's ensure that it continues to deliver high quality impartial news how it might tackle misinformation.

They want to look about how it can perhaps extends its support for producers and the public across the UK part of London how the BBC Spondon model might be reformed to ensure that it remains sustainable in the long-term and there's been some suggestions there around the advertising and subscription let's get into some of the detail you outline there before we do.

It's worth adding that according to the green paper published by the government this week in real terms the B&B

Income from the licence fee is declined by over 30% in the last decades as the context of the BBC's funding but in terms of the different models being considered that start with subscriptions and how might that work yeah, but a range of potential options that are now up for debate the most bold please one could say is a model for the BBC in which it puts all of its most commercial read popular programs behind the sort of Netflix style paywall for which people have to access the likes of potentially strictly Strictly Come Dancing the traitors.

You know even talk about England home games and then there'll be a licence to be bonded aspect which is news are children's programming that kind of thing that's universally available, but that's the most coldest measure with the other.

Spectrum regards weather report introduces subscription is a lighter thing where abouts we see a bit of an archive so there's a paywall that goes up around some older programming on iPlayer what about advertising another option.

That's obviously open to the BBC and again there a government set out of range of measures 4 people including the BBC to consider, what should that look like no one end of the spectrum should the BBC carry adverts everywhere about it services from BBC1 to this program to its website that if you drop occasions, so they look at other options for chicken and that includes and headlight service where perhaps you know the BBC is allowed to carry adverts and those are but those are limited to the hats YouTube or the website finally Alex for the moment in Davie BBC director-general for the moment says at the BBC we want change so we can continue to deliver for the UK for generations to come we want to secure Public Service BBC that.

Hendon to staynor be funded for the long-term and meets are audiences need so that's the overall ambition, but do you have any idea which of these options the BBC favours well well contribute to these I mean I think one thing that the BBC has made clear is that it feels that the currents licence speed funding model whereby everyone plays a flat rate play some progressive.

I think that there could be some ambition for it to the hats explore options around that to make the licence bearer because I think what has acknowledged is there's a problem with increasing numbers of people I've been refusing or avoiding the licence fee and I think it's Caesar part.

This is this is an opportunity to enabling it to encourage more people in stem that small but steady decline of people that are turning off the licence key for the moment.

Thank you very much do stay with us now.

I was mentioning Tim Davie is the outgoing director-general because I'm

Everyone listening knows just go back a few weeks and we had that decision on a Sunday by boat in daisy and the CEO of BBC News Deborah Turness to step down that all connected to an edit of a trump speech on January 6th 2021 the Edit featured in addition of Panorama that was broadcast last year and the BBC is acknowledged that the Edit gave the mistaken impression Mr trump had made a direct call for violent action Donald Trump is already indicated that he would Sue over this and now this week.

It's happened.

He's taking legal action in Florida seeking 5 billion dollars the BBC says it will defend The Defamation lawsuit.

We going to get some help now understanding the factors that may decide whether such a case could be successful.

Do it and Benjamin is professor of Law at Duke Law School professor Benjamin thank you very much indeed for joining us just first of all can you outline the grounds for Mr Trump's lawsuit?

Sure so BBC edit supplies together to separate statements that he made about 50 minutes apart and so I gave the impression that he's coming here from the documentaries to watch the end of the capital and I'll be there with you and we fight we fight like hell, and if you don't fight like hell.

You're not going to have a country anymore the problem is the first half of that in the second half of that appear different times and his argument is that they give a false impression that he was encouraging violence and therefore that is that it is false in the United States you also have to prove that the statement was made knowing it was false or with reckless disregard for its falsity and he says that the BBC either new or was reckless in splicing these together and giving this false impression and based on.

Information available to all of us, do you think he has a case so as to the falsity? I think that I didn't hear the case the interesting question here is was it a false in in the sense that he did mention fighting five different times in a lot of people think that is actually was an incitement to violence in his complaint.

He didn't know any did say at one point in the speech that people should I'm coming here peacefully in patriotic make your voices heard and so he says this was a false impression, so that's one issues with the force it I would assume that he would have a reasonably strong argument on the reckless disregard because I assume that you ever spliced it very well.

They were they were spliced together.

There is a separate issue however which is his bring this lawsuit in Florida and is not at all clear.

There's a single person.

Who actually would have seen this video that's a problem and then finally there's the final of the financial dimension the president is seeking 5 billion giving your knowledge of how these cases player in Florida and your knowledge of the information around this particular case, what do you think the Chancellor of the president getting that kind of money? I think that the level of Damages I got to sort of my point is particle.

I think they could have just easily in a complaint send the one I could Gillian daughter's it's the idea that he was harmed to that degree.

Did win the election because maybe conceivably a few people in Florida might have seen this this this documentary if they had a VPN or were incredibly dedicated to sing.

The idea that had any serious harm him just seems ridiculous, so if you were to win one would expect the the actual damages would be in the $100.

Maybe thousands of doctors but nothing close to the billions of dollars professor Benjamin thank you very much indeed that Stewart and Benjamin professor of Law at Duke Law School let's quickly go back to Alex father from the X Alex any connection between this case playing out in Florida and the process of charter renewal.

I mean one is obviously a very painful expensive process for the BBC and damage, but it nevertheless something was short term problem.

Where is charter renewal is very much around the BBC's long-term future for the next 10 years from 2028 so I see the tube running into each other particularly Media correspondent at the times and the Sunday Times 9th December for coming on to the media show now we're going to finish the program by talking about micro dramas.

I don't know.

About them.

They are part of a rapidly expanding Sean Rowe what were talking about our dramas that play out in 1 to 2 minutes vertical videos for the design to watch on your phone they started in China is an astonishing statistic according to one estimate in China revenue from micro dramas.

This year is set to surpass the cinema box office and I should imagine there now plenty of people invest in my pyjamas around the world including the UK here's a clip from one.

What sort of set foot in this room.

I am one of the minimum.

Spend at her.

Please accept my apologies and leave well.

That's from Pride and Prejudice on the platform real short.

Let's talk about my crush on micro genres first of all.

With munchies and Jane from the BBC World Service II's global China unit and very good to see you.

Thanks for coming into the studio.

When did this genre start getting very popular in China thanks.

Happy me so we can see that this time actually started even before the pandemic, but it really picked around 20-22 2023 so when you first started it would people there is already existing culture where people online novel like web-based articles people Road romantic stories and so there is a base for people loving those kind of dramatic shows and that develops so much when we have the drums like going and those vertical platforms and that becomes a huge explosion in China where would people find the dramas on social media on devoted apps.

How does it work are the wording to does episode by their promotions on the tiktok or Instagram in China that will be like equivalent like going ok? So they will give you some Peter episodes and they will give you a light clip-on.

If you want to finish the rides you have to download the specific abs you say there's a teaser episode but the whole episode itself is only 2 minutes.

How often do they arrive so usually are each series can have 5268 entire series but they only let you see the first five or six episode under under 3 basis and if you want to finish the rest of that we have to spend more money and there'll be lots of people looking at this thing production point of view OK maybe we should get into this.

How do these micrograms make money yeah definitely one where they can make money is through the promotion and the advertisement if you want to watch for free you have to click the advertisement and then you can see it and the other way is like a subscription-based you can pay for the abs and people the coins on the app so I can purchase by the episodes to the dramas and China have the same production values as regular TV or they're more lo-fi operation.

How does it work? Yeah? It's a really really fast pace production.

So you can.

Send a stress and values they put into it was so I wouldn't say it's like a big production like cinematic and the usually do it like a really fast ways so the design as seeing a member of cinematography the same with single cinema.

Ok, thanks for coming and sitting next Tuesday Thompson non-executive director K7 Media which is an international media consultancy do you think this has the ability of scaling? What does in China but in most Media markets other than China where it's expanding rapidly and then you got the kind of plaster of Latin America Turkey Spain weather already very used to the telenovela style of storytelling so there now doing his Mike Ellis as I've become down again one that romance area but then also coming rapidly to Europe and the UK as well and just remember the US short format which got an awful lot of attention.

Did 6-months only why do you think it's different this time? I think the problem with be perhaps was that it was maybe the right idea but the wrong model the wrong production model and the wrong financial model.

It was very premium short form and I think it was the kind of case of the Hollywood production model being put into short form.

Where is this is the Chinese model? It's much more cost-effective quicker to make and the monetisation is more from gaming format specific to drama or can you see other types of content working in similar ways are there of the Beginnings of non-scripted versions of them as well kind of reality shows done in micro episodes as well, but at the moment.

I think it's the scripted market.

That's driving it because we have seen this kind of Cheaper quick version of that sort of history time and would you see any crossover at all between the people that make the biggest scripted programmes biggest dramas in the

For the big streamers for BBC for everyone and microtransit totally separate ecosystems.

I think all of the big players are looking at how they can move into this area.

I mean fox one recent announcement into my god, you're my company so I think they're all looking to do it, but I think they will be wise to do it with people who know how to make them because there is a real formula and a real kind of that the Chinese have been learning for the last 5 years.

So you know you need to know how to do it from the start.

I'm sure I must be asking what is the Chinese government make of this is the power behind a small screen and the people are watching a millions if not millions across the world so in China that we noticed the Surge and first of all they do on it put some regulation on the can't be to Bulgaria you should fit the social values and the other realise that if they can use this to all it can be a new propaganda way, they used to using their own tools and there's a lot of.

Classic in right, I've never seen in my pyjamas fancy following a great one where where do you suggest they go so finish listening to the media show to go and try one out real short and Drama box to the biggest something that number 7 and 8 in the UK in the entertainment top 10 of apps.

So you could look there the Pride and Prejudice one that you so don't think it's a good indication of how the UK can do it in the Chinese but with a little nudge wink may be thank you very much for both of you for coming in that's Claire Thomson non-executive director at K7 Media thanks.

Also to my colleague mug sang From the service.

That's it.

Thanks for listening.

Bye.

Bye.

I'm Phillips songs from BBC Radio 4 and The History podcast this is the arrest a Race Against Time and a seemingly untouchable man of flight plan and accused of crimes against humanity.

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