Read this: How to Make a Hit TV Show

Sounds music Radio podcasts for the entertainment and John and celebrity traitors on cloud welcome sounds hi, I'm Katie razzall.

Hello.

This is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome in this edition of the media show we came to go deep inside the world of entertainment TV with the help of the people who make it from Celebrity Traders to hunted and pointless and many more these are shows that millions of Us watch dissect.

But how do they come to life who dreams them up? Why does some become instant Classics while others get quietly dropped or take a series or to take hold content creators globe franchisees and new technology in the mix.

What does the future of entertainment TV look like yesterday other people behind some of the biggest formats we know and love they know what doesn't and they're already crazy in the shows will be watching next year and beyond before we meet them.

Let's hear some of the shows they've already been involved in making ground closing in on Andrew are you a traitor? I am and have always been a traitor.

The end goal is to lose virginity find a girlfriend being more intimate.

Can I put it off can I do this that was hunted produced by Shine TV for the celebrity traitors produced by Studio Lambert for the BBC building a band produced by remarkable entertainment for Netflix and Virgin Ireland produced by double Act TV for Channel 4 well.

I'm here in the media show Studio with me and Katie are Tim hardcore chief creative officer at studio Lambert Matt Bennett director of programmes that shine television tomorrow Gilda joint managing director of Romeo and treatment and art CDU head of commissioning development at Channel 4 great to see you.

I just want the most of your time this year tomorrow.

What does the band that you heard of people that last year but streamers forgetting stuff out as a rule so that you know that was 10 shows that went out this year, but I have.

Made another I think almost 400 shows that that that have been on at this year was busy, then.

What about the other three of you? Where do you spend most of your time? Where has been very busy at this time last year we were just coming back from New Zealand having shots something for the summit which is 14 ordinary people going up a mountain in New Zealand and we just made two series of hunted back back one of which is already gone out on Channel 4 on the other one.

We delivering for to go out next year so it's been very busy as a company at traitors.

So you may have heard of has taken up quite a lot about the celebrity traitors lawn sand and we will thought it would be so popular but it was beyond our wildest expectations event when you have a show that goes that big it's not kind of like what is over you the job.

I do really is trying to think about the next thing that we're doing and so sometimes you don't actually get the benefit of resting on your laurels and enjoying a big success like that.

What's the world also to me person who takes up quite a lot of time because there's a lot of logistics involved in the making of that show and the odd one out here because you're a big show you on the other side of those commissions.

Have you spent most of your time on my job really look forward to actually what I've been doing this year is looking at those that come on screen next year the chair.

We spoke about most this is one in the pre title.

Is there a Virgin Island let's just a little bit of the kind of terms of reference if you like, this is the point in the show to do that.

It's sort of TV job and programs are split into scripted and Unscripted as we said you're all Unscripted specialist.

What is on scripted? What does it mean? I mean kind of obvious that at the same time no and is there a great divide and TV producers in the 12 description the one to do on a script.

I mean I would say that broadly Unscripted covers a huge huge amount of ground scripted is.

Mama really anything that it says doesn't it's got a script.

Where's Unscripted could be could be documentaries.

It could be reality let's hope perhaps presenter lead.

That's my taken.

We all have a different take on it.

I mean confusingly Unscripted often has a script script a reality show might have a present the history documentary will have a script in America Unscripted was literally called alternative so they used to be all the drama shows that were on the big networks and then I'll be at the corner rmbc on ABC should be the alternative and late night department and then make the late night chat shows on American TV and that have alternative program in which was the alternative to drama programming went to love that kind of programming didn't really come about here like that program and came about through tradition of documentary making really in Great Britain scripted which is often.

That sort of Gru I suppose sort of organically into what we would now call reality television filming that you're doing the voiceover.

It might not be that kind of population tomorrow from remarkable TV does it mean that people are experts in all the offer could you do some people make drama and then also make on scratch it or not to be honest about on script abroad church is that I think within your areas you how much you know anyone that's in it but you know in the quiz and game world which is very much my world the somebody making a documentary.

I may never ever meet have a chance to talk to occasionally or meet people if you're on the wall doesn't like that, but you're well.

Just not Collide it's there enough to go across all of the owners within Unscripted letter going into scripted that you know that there are very very few.

Do both you're going to take us through the process from beginning to the very end of producing Unscripted television, let's start at the very beginning with idea.

I'm interested to know whether the best ideas that you use as the ones that you have while sitting on the bus or going for a walk or whatever it might be or do you actually have a process of idea generation to make sure you decent ideas so Mac with the Hunted did you had that hunted on hunted sorry I'm doing now.

That's alright.

No actually came from someone in the office saying what do we know about people going on a run but I would say our ideas come from a more formal constructive process where we brainstorm.

We look for a newspaper as we will work out the social social experiment.

We want to test within the realities and then there are those that are sort of almost lightning bolt such as well.

It was sent people on the run.

Ok? Why was sending people on the run and then at that particular time.

No, it was you might remember, but there's a lot of discussion about how much the state new about us, how much we were sharing information with the United States and also it seems really relevant.

It was recite guys to to send people on the run in Britain won.

The most surveilled states in the UK I mean I come from a development background and then television development teams have a job.

No job is to generate ideas and then to work those ideas up and to what become TV programmes so for example Gogglebox as an idea that I originally had about 15 years ago now.

I'm on the idea for me for that came about watching the London riots and the time there was a lot of Big Show's there within hospitals and maternity ward someone born every minute and so I thought I wouldn't.

To ring the front rooms of people's the TV rooms are living rooms basically being filmed on today, but is the capital of an idea on the development team and myself have to sit and work out what that show actually is.

It's all very well to have a notion or or or brainwave or lightning Bolt or whatever you want to call it, but I have to turn it into something that you can take to a broadcaster like art and pitch to him and say this is a viable show few people are going to watch it people are gonna love it, but is the equivalent of noise like the famous story of lennon-mccartney being kind of told to go in a room and not come out until they had a good song is there a curved television development equivalent where you think we just haven't got enough good ideas kicking around the company that got to come up with more I mean if we were coming up with ideas.

We would be we would not have you know it's funny when you sort of passed your first question about what keeps me busy.

Yes, there is all stop it you're doing now but if you neglect what's happening coming down.

What you doing next year? You don't have a company anymore.

So yes, you do have to come up with ideas and you will come up with the top line and everyone goes this is amazing and then you sitting room and he talk about it and interrogate it and I hate it and then it comes back around and then you love it again when you've worked out all of the moving parts because tomorrow that's a key part of the prices of the development stage talking about by the time you get your commission by the time it closes your desk.

Does it come fully formed? Is it clear that it will be a hit.

Can you tell that looks sometimes sometimes turn on walks in with an idea in your movie think there's something in this.

I really want to make this work and you work with them to develop even further to find out exactly what happens in every episode every part of every episode does other times when someone will come in with a kind of ideas a look.

I'm actually just thinking about a show where people go on the run and you work on that together it depends on the exact idea.

Like this one in the Netherlands between the original and in the development stage we're looking at the Dutch program, and you don't want to do it like that.

We can do it in this way, so yeah, that's the other interesting way that shows get sold that for mats exist outside of the UK the UK actually happened to Craig a lot of formats and the value format for selling them internationally another country that does that is the Netherlands big brother for example came from the Netherlands that was a format from there and the trade has happened to be another format from the Netherlands and we saw the original please which celebrities in it.

We absolutely loved it and saw subtitles.

I've got something that good and then we were lucky enough to get the rights to pitch that in the US and the UK now there is a format that exists and that has happened to do well in another country broadcasters like to hear about it.

So they might know that we have the right to learn if they really like the program as well.

They'll come knocking and that.

Really happened with traitors we had it yes, we were thinking about how we can make it better and how I can add like a lot of value to it and visually especially but we also in the position that NBC and and BBC separately came to us and said we would like to do that with you, but the People Who originally created traitors.

They don't mind all they not able to stop you changing their format.

Obviously that sold the format and I'm very happy to a soul to soul and a very happy for it to travel made benefit financially from it.

They are protected about many elements of the former and some format some more than others that what you can do with the form at right so in the case of traitors.

We still had meaningful consultation with the Dutch as to what we could do a consultation say what they want something like that.

They have to be green bikes at they all were fussing around that they weren't that prescriptive but obviously went into a lot of the brilliant decision said made earlier on themselves.

I've been in conversations with former owners who are incredibly prescriptive where it actually it means you know you're not gonna get the show away because they need every single thing to follow the original version really sucks my form at the Debenham cross and you have to respect people from that country of they know what will work in their territory.

So you have to go and you can but you just don't want you to ruin it.

You don't want to go if you do that.

You're taking the joy of the show out of it and it will not be good.

So you have to read it about trusting people who are dancing it, but whilst trying to keep the integrity of what you believe the show is just very quickly as I wanted to say we work in the creative Industries and I would say industry is really important there because that's what we're all trying to do think up of IP intellectual property which we then sell we make and we love making its creative process, but we also want to sell that IP abroad and actually Britain does really well at it's something we should be.

As a creative hub hunted for example they made in 15 territories this year including Botswana but if it or not I'm using because I can't imagine there's not CCTV for example to what you were saying tomorrow.

I think that yes, I have people calling me up and say what would like to do hunted with the presenter and you wanted to travel the world, so they know best they know how it's going to work within their nation.

So you will sometime say ok for the presenter.

Let's see how it goes so you're all developing you had your ideas.

You've worked your ideas up.

I'm interested in the degree to which you are treating that idea in isolation or the degree to which your factoring in trends in the industry that this idea will work or not work because of audience appetite or commissioner appetite at the you aware of transit inform the shows and ideas you back.

I would say that everything we do is informed by audience trends and our job is to serve our audience.

People might think YouTube is also to set trans reality show friends and say that sense.

That's fair.

I think within that you're still looking to serve an audience someone that often means there's something in even the most distinctive new idea that you think will resonate so for traces for example the universal Potter layer is something I think the BBC would feel confident and thinking even though this is a strategy game where people wearing cloaks that will resonate for Virgin Islands a show which really tackles the intimacy crisis you would actually this is something young people do care about you up extended version on Ireland having sleeping sex surrogates if they want to lose their virginity that sounds bonkers bad heart actually there are classed as a question that you think that with an audience and what about tomorrow with quizzes the British TV audience obviously loves them but are there trends within that that you've spotted through all these in a year.

Gases in the quiz format in the UK you know there are Saturday night quizzes, but quite a lot of are staples are in the daytime shoulder peak area and actually it's real privilege to be able to make shows that people having their lives every single day and I will come back to you today.

They really have to sustain if you want somebody to come to you every single day.

You've got to give something that is involving but slightly different that isn't too repetitive so actually you just need to get your mechanism right and your you're such a framework right and you can skim different ways of essentially it's really hard to get right but when you do you got hit and you got loyalty in the linear world which is so important trends.

I mean week that you know sometimes lb100 people and then you'll see loads of those 100 people and then it's all about the individual journey, but if it's a great show and great mechanism and you're at home and playing along that's what people.

Definitely risk in trying to follow trends too much like you will see after there is a hit that will be 1000 shows that are the comments you're making about Transit specific to the UK which is a course understandable, but as your primary making television for a UK market, but let's take something like squid game the challenge which studio Lambert made another production company called the garden in that case you knew from the very beginning this needed to work globally so does the development of the idea of the decisions you make around the core structure of change.

No, I don't think the decisions do change and like mentioned.

We're all chasing sort of global information and they're in the formats that we make we want them to travel the world and actually days as well Britain has a long lineage of creating amazing quiz formats you want to be a Millionaire for example 1% club that has travelled the world for squid game the challenge it was slightly different but does.

Another trend that is around these days and that is companies of leaning into pre-existing ITP and what I mean by that is squid game is a bit of intellectual property that's owned by Netflix and had a drama that was very successful with squid game that was a sofa dystopian version of a reality or Unscripted show and we were asked to make a version of that for the audience.

We already knew that the global audience would be interested in the shows with red after running start at the beginning of the gauge auto nor presentation style that would make very well for British audience, but they just wouldn't resonate with someone else personally.

I don't think that you lean into those sort of micro decisions about our people in this country gonna find it funny or will sensitive in this country play against me and I think you might get into a spiral of those of the sort of decisions that will guide in you for me personally when I'm leaving the charge on making an Unscripted thinking do I

Would I watch this with somebody I know watch this and then the hopeful is there for that trend follows that applies for everyone about having an idea developing it some industry trends.

What about moment when you get to be picking it to Someone Like art and it gets commission tomorrow.

Just took us through that how it works.

Is it like Dragons Den do you still have walk in and have to say yes or no, when you enjoy it if you actually a picture goes well, you never in this business get chance to enjoy anything.

You're just go in and we need to fight through and then you get her probably got to see you're always thought of the next episode of a picture goes well.

I think you can tell and you sort of know the Christmas not to know who's being polite and who is just a bit of a yes person and you can tell him sort of them or dower people maybe your picture if there's a bit of a spark.

So you generally come out and you're right.

If you think there's a little bit of something there and then you generally pension to be with you already.

I mean now.

Obviously got this plethora of many people commissioning programs, but yes, I mean no Daddy hell's generally on the top Page to you know who wants the wine out at the top and you know who doesn't care about my darling.

Just wants to go straight in and you know the person who wants to be overloaded with details so they can try and you know the people that got no attention span and it's just three pictures you sort of know who your you Taylor it to who you're going to see and the channel and can you remember the first picture ever did at these things that was like 30 years ago and I would say it money's tight now and understandably broadcasters.

Don't want to take the risks, but you know because everything they commission needs to be a hit.

What's a with that comes much more thinking and more development in the idea before it gets commissioned but when you read one of your biggest shows the

People go yes straight away order something to tell them down.

I think what you know if you're going to get development budget as we call it money to work out the idea.

You know that broadcast is coming on board and the beginning to invest in your commission just means there thinking this could be good to something in this.

Let's throw them a little bit of money and see where we go and let's talk stats in terms of the amount of pictures that channel 4 will get in tens of thousands of TopLine ideas that are fully developed.

How do you make them make sure you're only gonna hear from the ones that you should be here in front as many people as possible.

I mean ideally work with we need to trust that they can make the idea but we're happy to hear from whoever's willing to you.

Don't know where the best ideas come from but we get TENS of thousands idea of those we will give a funded development to let say 1000 that means room should of those we might commission I don't know.

152 the chances the amount of work the development teams do is really tough from the other side.

You've got to be constantly constantly turning you got to be really fine with rejection selling pyramid is really shallow at the top.

There are a few people who can afford to commission these Big Show thousands of Us quite literally all you have such a thick skin development especially and just the picture you've got to have such a thick skin, so if one of you comes out the studio today and think I've just had a great idea.

Would it be for you to WhatsApp Barton go hey how about it? Or that wouldn't be how it would take me to can talk to each other more casually if you haven't got that initially and the other thing is it's not just one meeting one room you pitch your idea it gets for all sold.

There's a pyramid so too.

Within all the corporation saved in the BBC for example you might have a conversation with someone is a mid ranking executive they might have the picture to their boss and they might have to put it to their by so you say might always online idea actually you might have the germ of a thought but you really need to enter I meant to still it down to the perfect TopLine your first top.

I will never be actually what the show is really about so it would be very unusual to have one TopLine that someone would go on my god.

It's so much bigger than that you listen to media show and we are here discussing entertainment format for TV with Tim Harcourt chief creative officer at studio Lambert Matt Bennett who's direct shine TV tomorrow Gildart who's joint managing director at remarkable entertainment and Arts adieu, who's head of commission development at Channel 4 and we've talked about.

An idea developing it pitching it we now at the stage to talk about getting that green light the show going into production probably on location and and that key thing cost and you know you've all amazing characters team does celebrity ordinary contestants make for better TV do you think for example? I'm always do celebrity first you explain now why people kept saying that is because in the Netherlands they did do celebrities and you went for not doing that person.

Obviously that's incredibly successful, and then it goes please have a look in the format with tracers.

Yes, they are successful in the Netherlands had celebrities in it.

We were Adam and actually not to have celebrities in that does he wanted to stay really matter and when we put it to the BBC initially we said I know the celebrities in and Colin but we believe you've got to play it with with members of the public and it's gonna be much more interesting and he went to that.

Amazing people, how do you have an incredible casting team and weak Mimi castle of a shows where I suppose the world and Gogglebox and and squid game we have 456 cast members so we have place amazing teams of other people whose job it is to reach out to applicants and people they think should apply for the show that paper but the digital equivalent a mixture of ads online on social media sometimes but we go to places where we think interesting character going to be in Gogglebox remember.

We went to a bridge club to find Leon and June who sadly no longer with us, so we went to the place as we thought they would be interesting people and these casting teams her I have no end of resources for results Alness should say locating where the sort of diamonds and the rest are these great characters are that the British Public resonate with all see themselves in there anyone listen if you want to be on traitors next time he isn't there some tips.

Does it get that deep all of the shows really we ask potential applicants to upload a video to themselves and race across the world be asked for us to upload a video of the two of them so we can see what their chemistry is like and that's what important so they are just very much on the yeah, when you get to the final casting stage when the production company like a set of people they were present.

It's the commissioning.

I will go through it together and will say I'm not sure that this person will talk about it will collaborate but search as you get near the end of it when you get to the final cost you do see that yeah and tomorrow.

What about in the other sorts of that are you seeking out influences or content creators to be in your surely not so much for quizzes necessarily, but I mean we're in an era.

Where it is a battle of eyeballs.

You can't just expect people to come to your show you know it used to be there was five places you can watch TV

So many places to watch TV including YouTube so yes it can be helpful to have celebrities or influences.

You know if people come to your show if they're talking about you know it's not just a chat everything around if people are coming to it wonderful but I have to be the unit for building band our singers some of the word influences some of them did have a social media presence but they just had to be fantastic singers and really want to be in a band and when you've got those two things the other is a bonus program.

You've got your location the filming begins map to what degree do you get everything recorded and retreat to the Edit suite or to what degree are you actually editing and directing and shaping the narratives as you're filming will hunted is what I call a windup and go show so you with Hunters specifically Britain is the stage you know we cast our cars week after Hunters we build our set 4HQ and then we launch our fugitives and

Really is shot like a drama and I would say if we're talking about scripted Unscripted the launch is sudden all scripted parts, but once they are launched and if you seen the recent lady Stansted Airport once they've left the building that is it they are on the run and then we are we are monitoring and understanding the narrative that they're giving us while being filmed by many cameras to All Across would you have a gallery though where the people in charge of the programme? I'm watching all the foods come.

Yeah, we have so we haven't we have a Garrett 400.

We use a lot of for g-technology so we have live cameras coming back to us in a gallery so we can see what are Hunters are doing we understand what a fugitives doing animals were constantly getting feedback about what they're all up to you and two colleagues of yours sincerely Lambert about traces that your editing that reasonably close to when we all get to see it.

We hadn't very closely I mean something else.

That's interesting about these bigger shows like traces or

The back in the day and squid gamers will do a trial run so for three days will have members of the public who want pasta be in the show to come in and take part in the games and the format points that you are the contestants plane a few days later, so we actually record two or three shows so that we can see like where all that the jinx are all the mistakes and the cracks R&R format and smooth them over so then we can members of the public in or celebrities in everything runs, as smoothly as possible.

I think is that right? I've got a guinea pig and a note on the bus.

I'm always interested in because I was like the personal detail is that moment where you made your program? You've had your program you specifically people have been sitting there.

No, they know the program really well, and then it's about to go out.

What is that feeling like presumably nerve?

Is you wait to see how it's going to be received for you? It's really exciting mainly it's exciting if you spend months in the case of hunted can't hear you made this thing.

Yeah, of course it is exciting you like I'm the worst thing is it goes out and thanks.

Obviously exciting as one word.

I know there are others what we going to be a series 21.

There's always got to move it not you know you know so how do you approach that moment then when it's about to go? Are you sending WhatsApp down to your friends watch my new show at my house to do that you just got to hope that you've got the right press and social strategy behind it with budgets been tight that's off and put into production company sometimes to try.

You can make a great show can't you haven't got the socials behind it all their marketing behind it can be controlled and I think there I'm sure we all do this to the teams work on the shows before it goes how we just tell him.

It's a really good show.

No, thanks working really hard.

This is a brilliant.

So let's see how it's not how well did it do it how well is it doing so it's the less.

I mean less pressure on overnight 7 still cares about overnights, but it is the long tail of it and how it does in the 7-days and 28 days, so if you keep the hope and what do you do? I'm sure they have been situations.

Where all four of you have been involved in programs.

You're proud of you think you think it's going to be here and the next day or the next week.

It's becoming clear that perhaps this isn't resonating as you would hope how do you turn off that then you do the ones that do well in making a show that's going out and you're still making it.

Be really hot for the team making and working really hard and the full of talented people.

It's absolutely heartbreaking example spring to mind yet turn on his passport to Paradise which was a very long time ago and that did not do well and we doing it every week and you're turning up on you making the station when it's not doing well.

You just got home.

I would but you just have to have a really strong team and you've got a love what you do and just keep going that was Johnny Vaughan and Denise Van Outen three-and-a-half overnight which now with the like you sometimes find yourself fighting with commissioners who are saying that this doesn't look like it's shaping up and you're saying give it more time because of course there's a long history of very big formats that didn't age well.

Am I right the first series did the first series?

In the context of all other similar programming very very well.

I mean traditionally people talk about love Island the Reboot on ITV2 the first two Seasons didn't do brilliantly you know they were in the third season at absolutely pop didn't like you went from half a million people watching it to 3 million people watching it over night.

So that does show that a bit of staying power from the broadcasters really important, but in the case of love and that was all about the social strategy by using social media to sort of bring more and more young viewers to the program and the content and that something is very important for broadcast of days to support the shows with that social strategy examples of shows that have done ok, probably not well enough to Merit a reconditioned just based on figures, but you see something in that you believe in it and you can actually this has the potential to grow I do with twigs or with a different top line or I don't know what it is, but one example that we've got a cold tempting fortune, which was quite well and first series.

50% off on streaming and second series of a really happy with that there are plenty of examples of shows that you see something and you wants to driving Gogglebox have the same thing terribly the first series I like really really badly.

I remember when the first overnights came through I was walking down Carnaby Street and I thought I had to sit down together myself that was so bad.

I thought oh my god.

That is like this is the death of TV the first and then and then realised the prize in there and give people motivation and suddenly you've got something that that's or more relevant learning formats to haven't gone well recent examples you talk about very loyal dealers.

I've never worked from showbox had more podcast dedicated to it, but we didn't get the figures Fire TV and it needed it wasn't cold enough.

It didn't do well enough on Saturday coming back the channel.

Lovely or about it, but it just didn't do the figures.

Could you put your finger on why if you had your time again? Would you have made it differently and in hindsight? Is is a thing isn't it? But yes I would do you know what would I do differently? I'm really proud of it, but yes, I would want more people to watch it.

So yes, I would have to do something and it was a great show and and it's lovely to have a bit of honesty that we can do this subject without zooming out a little bit into the Business of TV because clearly the markets in changing so rapidly you mentioned YouTube also tiktok so many other places that people now watch content is the reality just at the TV market actually can't support as many entertainment 4 months as it once good or is the opposite true? I don't know I think we're going through.

Great adjustment last thing I saw is that YouTube is the second most watched channel after the BBC in Above ITV so that and everybody presumes you just been watching people my age 55 plus really picking you up and ready chilling in and also interestingly you know YouTube for creators are making programs that are more like traditional TV programmes so something about TV ITV4 sidemen and you know if they're endlessly sort of interesting and entertaining format does it feel like people like the sidemen on this to be moving into your turf has presented in Talent that come from out of a different direction of the way that some sports stars become.

I think I am gonna show on ITV it's just a difference origin story for these presenters.

Where good content comes from and this is just another area that we competing with but also you know we've got a YouTube channel if it's got a million subscribers on it doing the same thing.

It's a bit but we do care about the hard money element to miss you know we can't make things for YouTube and monetize it in the same way that we can create an IP that goes out and you know even if we create IP for a strimmer like Netflix we lose I believe the rights too that I P we know we don't get any revenue from that other than the big fat fee at the top.

So you know that does change to Change Is How We approach things for sure but he knows that saying that there in but we saw them in a way that we have appointments YouTube channel and it's what my mum Americans and it is so you know it's great for sort of getting your formats out there globally one of the things we should say because you know it's clearly been a very difficult time for lots of people who work in TV and a lot of people have been out of work.

Is there any hope you can give people that this is changing it has been a really tough time and I know some people who have had to step outside of TV or retrain and take new careers and that's really scary an unpleasant for them, but it does feel like in the past 9 or 10 months.

I think more is definitely being commissioned from from what I can see not personally as usual and Morris coming down the line.

I think so, I think there might be light at the end of the tunnel and hope first some of these people out there who I'm finding work so easy to find by the streamers in Britain and all sorts of programmes being made and yet.

There's this disconnect between that and the fact that so many people are out of work.

Yeah, it feels that I think that the middle has gone low-cost.

High-volume is still going ahead and I think that the big plays are still there but the middles gone but we just have to hope the both of those pick up too kind of makeup for the middle what I've noticed.

Is who are working in television are working hard and they used to I mean I would definitely so there's not much work around as they used to be that's that's for sure we came out of kovas and and I couldn't find people to work and then suddenly has stopped.

It was almost all the money been spent and and I think we now I hate said I think we now in the New Normal I don't think you know people think it's going to get better, but I actually don't think that's the case.

I think we now levelling out and this is where we are all four of you.

It's been a pleasure talking we can't finish without you giving us a little bit of Intel about what's coming out the trash otherwise wouldn't know about so each of you which programme in the Unscripted world now that we know how to use that phrase correctly thanks for your help which programme would you pick out as being want to watch out for in 2026.

Well we haven't talked about AI and I think AI is beginning to make a splash in our world and

Landed to use the phrase this week last week called non-person combat and that is being tagged as the first AI reality show made by putting autonomous.ai agents into a simulated combat world listen to make Unscripted decisions then editing the results into reality TV star narrative this on YouTube look it up episode 29 episode 1 the presenter.

I think it's best thing about it because she's got a great sense of humour and is the presenter and yes, it's all I don't think this is take over our industry, but I think it's going to increasingly become part of it.

So that's your recommendation tomorrow.

Yours is not particularly non-necessary, but my favourite show from last year was last one last thing and there's another serious about coming out and I think it's done absolutely brilliant things for the comedy genre.

Challenges even better now.

I'm alright and got a smaller chair that doesn't a little him, but I love that show and it continues to sort of grow with the ages.

I won't give a Channel 4 answer cos that feels to see my favourite show is actually scamming to settings on the BBC unbelievable Public Service Broadcasting is a great format where Wilding and a team of professional scambusters intercept calls locals were chatting from scammers to vulnerable people and stop this from happening is a daytime budget is phenomenal and three of you anyway have mentioned things that already out.

There.

Are there any breakout hits aside from AI that you are watching for? What do you think? I'm really excited that's to talk about Channel 4.

I'm really excited about us late next year.

We've got a lot of big new Unscripted swings they put the one that probably most excited that is.

Yes, which is hosted by Alan Carr we got very lucky and cost and just before his term as president rates and currency dent travelling the country to find Britain's undiscovered junior says that he would you expect to be genius is very heartwarming and super play-along commission viaduct impact into the big swing I guess you're all in a different ways got big swing planned for 2026 that are we going to have to leave it many thanks to Tim Harcourt chief creative officer at studio Lambert Matt Bennett director of programs that shine television tomorrow Gilda point.md at remarkable entertainment and Arts head of commissioning development at Channel 4 from all of us here in the Studio thank you so much for your company.

Take care good.

Bye.

Bye.

I'm pleased songs from BBC Radio 4 On The History podcast this is the arrest a Race Against Time to apprehend a seemingly untouchable man of flight plan.

Former dictator and accused of crimes Against Humanity having been those cool around the Spanish pictures listen first on BBC sounds.