Read this: The Reith Lecture row, Telegraph sale & CNN documentary MisinfoNation: White Genocide

Sounds music Radio podcasts hello, I'm Emma Barnett I've always wondered if we had more time does the story go for that what you do right now? This is it this defines Your Life by how little the medical Communities never bothered with this is my new listen hello, I'm recycling this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome in a moment will look budget means for you Media on Monday a parliamentary committee quiz senior BBC figures about the crisis at the BBC the committee's chair will tell us where those exchanges leave the corporation and its chairs Samir Shah

And we'll discuss why do BBC edited the Reef lectures after they have been recorded to remove a line about Donald Trump the Telegraph is being sold to the owners of the Daily Mail ft editor Lionel barber will assess that deal will explain how contested claims about The Killing of white farmers in South Africa made their way into the Maga ideal World in the US but let's start with the budget and journalist preparing their reports had a head start after the office for budget responsibility accidentally published its full report what was in the charts of speech 40 minutes ahead of Rachel Reeves actually making it there was sweeping tax Changes but little mention of the media and the creative Industries will with us are Dame Caroline Dinenage chair of the culture media and sport committee Lionel Barber as I said the former editor of the Financial Times and Max gold international TV editor at deadline and Max for welcome to all of you.

Start with you the budget is a set-piece media event it was overshadowed because this was put out early the phobia has apologised the BBC's Henry Zeppelin has called what extraordinary and surreal how are you? Is it certainly certainly completely Completely out of the ordinary? I think there's a lot more to talk about regarding that over leaking however you want to turn it compared to what they're actually was in there for the the media industry the TV world the film World the creative Industries it certainly never never happened before has it and it's left people scrambling and you were there is a lot of internal goings on at the Odeon at the moment that could end in disaster for somebody multiple people who knows maybe jumping up and down in Great excitement because this plays into her narrative of an over powerful elitist organisation has too much control over the budget and whoever this time.

Deliberately should be publicly reprimanded possibly hanged because it's it is a hanging offence it's ridiculous.

It's an accident, but this is a serious mistake and somebody should be able to come because it completely undercut the chancellor's statement to the house of commons when you were editor of The ft.

How much time did you when your dad has spent trying to get hold of the budgeting advance if that's what I'm trying to do or are you just trying to find out particular elements of it particular that you can skip on early evening my days some time ago now when I was there to turn I was there for 14 years and actually the problem was resisting all the trial balloons.

Sent out by the Treasury and Elsewhere and this is now got to an extraordinary to go because the whole budget was actually trailed including the income tax that never happened increase so this.

Eating is out of control and the OBD are the new mall today.

Is is the source of the height of absurdity Caroline bring you in at this point perspective at the TV and film industry, did you find anything in the budget to please? You had got from the Treasury offered.

Nothing new Ferrara Media creative Industries that I can see it was a mention of the film studios tax relief that that was employed with the last budget was actually originally moved in the previous budget by the last government some minor administrative changes to have some tax credits interact, but really silence on a creative Industries and that's very worrying bring you in from your perspective covering this industry with my disappointment at the budget certainly and I think as Caroline well knows giving what the committee has been working on for these past few months.

Appointment will centre around mainly tax credits so there a huge quarters of of the TV industry in particular, which were looking for improvements to the high-end TV tax credits.

That's a relief that pays out on more expensive TV drama.

That has not budged it's very difficult time to be making TV drama at the moment and I'll be disappointed in all quarters, so I would imagine all three of you.

Thank you or you staying with this because we're not going to talk about the BBC a couple of different stories relating to the BBC in a few minutes or turn to controversy around the Reef lectures but first on Monday for three-and-a-half hours MPs in the culture media and sport committee questioned and number of senior BBC figures including BBC chairs to me a board members to Robbie Gibb and former independent editorial size at Michael Prescott who's leak memos appearance in The Telegraph began the current crisis at the BBC will go and I need you chair the session and you said afterwards that some of the responses were wish.

What are your thoughts 2-days on it was very difficult to get to grips with some of the key issues that we were to get more information on there were three things that we were trying to trying to pin them down on three linked but very distinct issues as the crisis rumbled on there is the editorial standards particularly around Panorama and really slow response on that the ongoing issues of impartiality and bias that Mr Prescott memorised and then the broader issues of governance and the BBC and the structures that are in place and and then of course we received an awful lot of media coverage and correspondence with very very strong views on all of those issues on very different sides of the argument as well, but we did really struggle to get strong answers.

I thought from the

Editorial standards and guidance bored and what we really looking for is some sense of grip because you've BBC is in a bit of a crisis at the moment and there are some brilliant people that work right through the organisation need to be well lad and I need to know that the process of choosing a new director-general and now we've had a new deputy director-general and across the charter review that will that will spring out of that shortly as well to be led from the front and needs to be letting a really robots the meaning for way.

I'm always interested ahead of these things.

How do you prepare our MP's having conversations with Janet people inside the BBC getting brief people outside the BBC how do you prepare for something like this YouTuber members decided? How they wanted to prioritise their own time to cover the three major issues that I mentioned.

We we got a lot of correspondence a lot of difference.

The importance of those issues some people wanted us to cover really specific things in great detail such as things that the coverage of Gods are sex and gender someone has to break the BBC for the way they edited trump speech.

I just wanted us to uncover the details of some kind of right-wing clue they believed to be happening in the BBC others just hope we will bring down one or all of the current BBC bored.

So they were eating pressures and but you know the the one of the most fundamental questions is when things go wrong.

They have been going on time and time again whether it was cock up or conspiracy and I think we tended to conclude that it was more of the former than the latter describing your conclusions are the uses of the committee as a whole or these your personal conclusions as the chair I can only speak for myself, but what we have done as a committee as we are.

Writing to the board later this week to set out what more information we want from them.

What action we want from them and then we'll decide our own Next Steps from there.

I think what we did decide collectively as a board is that as a committee at the Board needs to demonstrate that they are able to act much more decisively much more quickly and transparently.

You know there's definitely a sense that the haemorrhaging of leadership in a Tim Davie and head of news and indeed one of the board members may not have been entirely necessary if they have been able to get quicker at the messages across more effectively used to measure the need for the BBC to grip this situation in your committee the chair Samir Shah made the case that the man to do that right now my job is to stay the ship out of the shop were into even keel and get make sure the most important job.

I have right now.

Is to recruit a direct channel it is finally the most important thing I need to do is Saoirse the man to steady the ship Caroline Dinenage anonymous vote of confidence in him from the two other board members that were at the the committee.

They they seem to think that he wasn't doing excellent job as well.

Just wondered on the committee feel like he's the man to steady the ship.

I think at the moment.

I would advise against any further large-scale changes at the head of the BBC you know they need to be they need to be a director general in now and new director-general deputy.

They start the process of charter review they didn't have a good look at themselves and and and and take your heart look at the BBC's performance you mentioned at one stage earlier the glacial pace of the BBC's responses will be aware Samir Shah admitted.

He should have tried to settle.

My position on the editor of The trump speech when the committee meeting may but that didn't happen ordered he insist on finding a settled position in the months that followed and then when the story broke he then took a week in his words understand what went wrong and to get the right answer all of this on an issue.

That is known about 4 months and you and your colleagues asked about that were you satisfied with the chairs explanation for how long all those Turk no not really I think by the end of the session is that there is chaos in some parts of the BBC and that the board themselves are certainly a part of this and that does need to be some real fun changes from within and then of course of part of the charter review as well if there's any hope of fixing that and but you know someone needs to steady the ship someone needs to get this important.

You know the BBC is the most one of those trusted global news brands.

It's such an important ambassador of the UK around the world and it would just be devastating of them.

Reputation both nationally and internationally is tarnished.

What's your thoughts on this well as a food on it.

It was rather disappointing because I was hoping to find out who was really responsible for triggering a crisis that led to the resignations of the top people at the BBC the director-general are the news now Caroline's could have her finger on this the BBC was tardy in responding to a serious editorial problem.

It's that would not a mountain by the way, but it's certainly a more molehill.

There wasn't a serious editing error in the Panorama directory the Panorama programme and that could have been ratified by the question is why not? Why didn't the chairs Samir Shah lay this to rest it required a prompt apology and possibly reprimanding or worse of the producer?

Is a serious mistake but in the overall scheme of things it did not warrant the resignation of the director-general or indeed head of news now my issue, which I think Caroline Hunter dad.

Is that there is being a real problem in at least one member of the board interfering in editorial coverage operationally and micromanaging it.

Why is it that Michael Prescott who produced a flood report if you're looking at due impartiality? Yes that was late, but Michael said there's no institutional bias at the BBC will the question then is if that's true.

Why did the director general and the dead of news have to resign and by the way I need to be.

I'm critical of the sum of the BBC's editora mistakes and I as an editor experienced editor certainly would have done things differently now.

What are The Dimension of this story that we should get into is the resignation that we had from the BBC board we knew about it last week 80 in part.

Thanks to your reporting but in the last 24-hours you got your hands on the actual resignation letter which put your more information in the public domain on Friday we broke the story that he had resigned this man.

Should be Banerjee who was a board member since well.

He was there for 4 years almost time was up anyway at the end of December he said that we understand we reported that he said he had been consulted and that they were governance issues it felt like a direct critique of Samir Shah of the board now those issues of governance consultant were contested by Samir Shah in the committee and after that last night that she just at home.

The light off and Mr Banerjee himself, sent me the letter and he said it wasn't Off the Record that I could say he sent it.

He said he told me he had watched the committee with interest and sort the letter might clarify his reasons for resigning and serve to inform misconceptions, which may have Arisen for committee members and viewers.

Did you go to the show that I did not sadly my had to leave my friend so maybe next door to her on her own, but you know it was worth it because it was either this story.

It was a dam in letter.

You know he says news boss Deborah Turness was told she did not have the confidence of homage to the board but she meant Banerjee writes that he was not invited to any meeting with a matter of such importance was to be discussed and he goes on to say I will not be seen as a participant in a board decision on which I was not consult no one which in my view has had adequate discussion by the way I have also been told by the inside of the Deborah Turness had already decided to resign at that point because she didn't have confidence in the balls that looks like a total.

Remember the board and then you say you wanted to come and just before you do Caroline Dinenage we could bring you in because when you saw Katie's report details of that letter.

Did you feel that the contents of that letter contradicted what you been told by the chair on Monday received a copy of the letter this afternoon, so I didn't miss the theatre last night and we missed it on the committee's website and it does seem to be a different pictures of the one with the doctor.

She gave the committee he if you recall spoke about the 26th phone call with Mr Banerjee on the day that Tim Davie resigned, but that doesn't seem to account for any of the previous week when the BBC was Himalayan some sort of crisis over how to handle the Fallout from that memo we take Mr Banerjee resignation at face value.

There's really only two options here out of the chair.

Get a very selective account to the committee or how we worked with Mr Banerjee during that week or the chairs not.

I think he is about bringing all the members of his board together and leading the organisation but whichever way is life that neither of those are very good news for over the BBC or Dr Shah so we're going to be up on the days when we write to him in later on in the week and in that situation where you think that has happened.

Would you consider calling Mr shot Dr Shah back? Would you evidence from doctor from humid Banerjee would you would you ask him to give evidence to committee? How does that work? I don't think anything the table.

We tend to take decisions collectively so what you know wait to see you.

I mean based on previous experience it to take quite a long time to get left responses to letters out of the the board so we won't hold my breath, but hopefully we'll get a response back in the next week or so and then what steps to take further Caroline has raised the issue of governments and confusion about government here is the question I put to you Katie

Is it really the BBC boards responsibility to say that they have no confidence in the director of news the answer in my view is no they're the director-general.

What's the d'abord if there's a problem with the director of news that is Tim Davies responsibility.

They can be informal discussions with the chair, but it's his it's not the board Welwyn in the letter Mr Banerjee also effectively subtly make that point who writes the treatment of Deborah Turness would have been viewed by Tim Davie the director-general as a direct Assault on so he's saying it's not surprising he resigned.

He also says in the letter that the way the board has acted as took BBC and my is a valuable lesson that he put Italy can launch as he calls it strategy can work to do the corporation and he also it was really interested in the letter when he calls it in comprehensible that the BBC board could lose Deborah Turness and Tim Davie as he puts it simultaneously and trauma.

And still hold itself in high regard.

Can I done it? Do you agree with that? Well? It is it's just not a very good luck.

Is it and not only that they need to be collections differ and how it all planned out because Dr Shah spoke to us about Deborah Turness is honourable decision to resign but he also didn't share with the committee that the board has seemingly forced her out which seems to be worked Mr bandages resignation letter would suggest so there's a lot of unanswered questions here indeed.

There are and I'm sorry for being unsettled in my critique, but this the lesson for me is that the BBC board needs to have more editorial heft so I can stand up to bullying or intimidation of their news director because these are fine judgements.

It's not about total impartiality were talking about due in Bath

In terms of the garage we should say at this point we ask the BBC to take part in today's programme it declined in fact no BBC executive has given an interview on this crisis for two-and-a-half weeks.

No BBC music is given an interview on this prices at all as a listen to I'm wondering if you can put this in contact for us when you were editor of The ft.

How are you government was there someone who could tell you whether to put a statement out or not on the 8-ft journalism never and I was an extremely important privileged position for 14 + years.

I went through an ownership transition when the Japanese nikkei bought the FD 44 times openings by the way 2015 but I reported to the proprietor at my responsibility for all content but if there was a problem then the proprietor and it wasn't very clear.

They could suck me but I did not report to the chief executive only on budget match.

It was down to me to make the decisions just before we are talking about the BBC and about your committee.

They were criticisms of York to the not landing a blow.

I think Andrew Neil was decided the uncomplimentary saying the quality of questioning wasn't pulling it lacked any forensic approach those were hoping to get the Scouts of the chairs and a shout or the non exec director Robbie Gibb auto discredit Michael Prescott the author of the report that caused all the trouble they going to be deeply disappointed because nobody really ladies glove on them.

I wonder from your perspective.

Are there any lessons for you and the committee going forward they still doesn't like that.

I mean I mean do you know what we did set out to London that's just not how we roll.

We set up to that will get it expose issues and get and get to the the heart of a problem.

I can do you think you did that.

Google have different conclusions, but the sense we had by the end of the session is that there is nothing we exposed it quite effectively is that there is a of the part of the Heart of the BBC the board themselves or are they need to be fundamental change from within that's not necessarily easy one line headline to write from the session, but I think it's where the evidence took us.

If you listen carefully and it was 1/2 hours you can't say we went for anything.

It's certainly was long.

I will give you that I will do stay with us, please because we going to keep talking.

I'm afraid about the BBC cos we're gonna talk about this year's read lectures.

They were given by the Duchess tour in the brackman before broadcast one line about Donald Trump the president of America was removed for legal reasons you want that line is but as we understand it.

This is the sequence of events after working with the BBC team rocket lectures pregnant lectures are signed off that mean.

Satisfied it meets its editorial standards at this point the line in question is in the lecture next elections are recorded in front of a live audience the line is still there about point but when the broadcast on Radio for one line had been removed and posted a video on social media.

I find it hard to express.

How short I am by the BBC's decision because this is not just another Media organisation and these lectures known as the Reith lectures at for more than 75 years then one of the BBC's most important public platforms for ideas and free expression.

this should concern everyone left right Centre

Horse people can disagree with the things I said but to commissioner lecture take it through the full editorial process recording before 500 people in the BBC Radio Theatre in the heart of love and then sorry that I fear that is something entirely different well.

Maybe spokesperson said all of our programs are required to comply with the BBC editorial guidelines and we made the decision to remove one sentence from the lecture on legal advice a lot of people are assuming that this is connected to the Threat of a lawsuit from President Trump exactly right singer defamation suit of 1 to 5 billion because of that Spice in together of the bits of his speech on Panorama and everybody is putting two and two together with assuming.

It's that in actual BBC decision-making all we have is a statement.

I just read out from Dublin that's bring you in what will your reactions your thoughts when you saw the story developing yesterday doesn't say.

Does it I mean I think the way that the BBC just remains in the line of fire we've been speaking about The Corporation for the last 25 minutes or so and I have something like this and the video on on LinkedIn which which the Duchess store in put out really really hit the nail on the head in terms of this being a very esteemed lecture.

It's literally named after one of the founding father does the BBC and so for it to be getting tangled up with the Donald Trump issue the Panorama if you everything that we're talking about I mean if a month ago anyone was going to say that they might be two potential legal threats that we would be discussing here on the media show concerning Donald Trump in the BBC I think everyone would be a bit surprised and think we were living in some sort of parallel.

Universe there this this could again.

I'm a big problem.

I'll be your head in your hands shaking your head.

This is a terrible terrible week need decision.

It's no excuse that.

Is it an illegal threat not a suit yet the billion dollars is a ridiculous number.

That's what he's tried on with everybody the president pose the legal advice but again speaking as an editor you don't the law has don't have the last word.

This is the Reith Lecture it's a matter of the things we don't know the legal advice the BBC has been given, but wouldn't it be reckless given its current situation to not listen to that legal.

Will you have to listen of course always listened to the advice? We don't take it in this instance.

This is the Reith Lecture it was a matter of opinion.

I can't say what the words were but it pertained to the president's business activities family and that won't go into anymore because they're not allowed to that's fine, but this was elected to massive of opinion.

This is not a

An allegation of fat which was detrimental mean that the other legal arguments which you could bring given the fact that they've been so much written about the president which could be considered without action.

There is a perfectly adequate Defence of what the professor wrote in his life leisure need some people say it's a sign of the chilling effector of Donald Trump's legal threats across the media industry, or is it just pragmatic? What do you think? It's just a bit busy.

I mean it's festival it's really important to differentiate between what's the reporting and what's a lecture which has very different purple together, but I have to say if the BBC is Finding itself nervous about what it's reporting about the trump administrations and that has to be seen as a very very regrettable result of the mistakes.

It's made in editing the Panorama documentary.

Do you think it's pressures on the BBC at the moment?

Got very nervous and in and the the detriment of the is to the BBC at so crucial the BBC can report freely and accurately around the world and the fact that every now tiptoeing very carefully around and unable to say things on your even on your program for the Threat of legal action you know it is just shows where we've come to in this as Caroline Dinenage acknowledges.

This wasn't a news report.

This is a lecture which CBBC is hosting.

Do you think it becomes increasingly problematic for the BBC to host people whose opinions as well? No because there's no problem with having an opinion but if the BBC host them then it potentially becomes problematic because their opinion is seen as being given a platform by the BBC well.

You certainly undermine the reflex and if there's a problem with political balance choose a different lecture next year.

There is a defence called fair comment and this given what we know about the pass.

Again, I'm having to tread unbelievably carefully here, but the the trump administration is all about Cowan critic scouring the media.

You can see that from Wall Street true to the New York Times the Wall Street Journal they're facing billion dollar libor are they suddenly going into the into the back passages no, but if you very much indeed and Caroline Dinenage thank you to you too.

Just before you go out.

I must come back to her phrase you use a few minutes ago when you said there's currently chaos at the BBC that's not ideal the BBC goes towards renegotiating its funding model.

No it's the worst possible situation is going to go into the charter review with no director general and with a board that clearly have got some issues.

I need to explain why quite a lot of this program talking about it.

It's the worst possible scenario and we know you know that did the BBC is just as important as a national broadcast around.

Beacon of the UK around the world leading to go into such a fundamental decision making period with with you so much instability is really rude and I think that's why the board needs to get a grip as quickly as possible and show that they can do this so that they can leave the BBC forward into her and much more stable stable future discoveries covering Richard sambrook, Caroline Thompson deputy general.

I don't know whether there's going to be a deputy director-general.

What is a whole other discussion which will save for another edition of the media show at 10 Caroline Dinenage thank you very much for making so much time for a free appreciating and also thanks to go back from deadline, but Lionel barber.

You're going to stay with us because we're going to turn to the sale of the Telegraph newspaper of the years uncertainty and a block B from Abu Dhabi back investors Wrotham is Daily Mail and General trust have agreed a 500 million deal to take control joining us all zonnestudio now is Dr Alice enda's senior Media analyst from Mendes and his hello Alice festival to you, please.

What do you think is behind dmgt speed? What's the business calculation on their part is the dmgt was part of the failed bit and that big collapsed you know 10 days ago.

I think you just fell and she's the lap of dmgt.

What part of a Consortium and then the Consulting fell apart and what the deal Philip and as a result they are they switched on on the situation there was talk of an auction list of dcms having to run an auction all of which sounded very hard, but the key thing about the bed is that it is for the reserve price of 500 million which is important to avoid with recruiter is a poison pill that would burden the buyer of Telegraph Media Group with a debt outside the balance sheet of the group person obviously a trade buyer newspaper proprietor or understand snooze businesses Telegraph Media Group you know £60 which is about a 22% EBITDA margin in relation to revenue.

It's still profitable it has lacked an owner as you mentioned for many years.

A news proprietor will also be able to text energies although I would rather made it clear that he was going to maintain the operational separation of each of his of the Telegraph Media Group just like he does so for his other titles but to me the most important thing is that private egg is out of the picture and that's a huge change in relation to redbird Capital they were the people who were the original original consultum to buy in quite technical for people who are listening.

I'm just going to say what you been tyres which is interest taxes depreciation and all that but just for people who are listening to this.

How profitable is the Telegraph is it by for the Daily Mail why do they want it in really simple times? I think my all is was very committed to the Financial Times

And his commitment is obvious and genetic probably so it is just a very simple commercial straightforward thing at the same time when can't ignore the political dimension to owning was referred to as the Telegraph which may be another consideration but from a commercial perspective you know it is it's a deal that fits into his portfolio.

There's no overlap so I see it as a commercial deal and it will be if it happens a huge holiday shin of British Media is there any kind of risk that well festival Lord Rothermere has played a blinder he did agree to be that Consortium the arrow American Consortium 2 years ago.

Is there reconstituted and he just sat there he promised money to give.

About 10% of the group but as we said this was a deal involving dead.

This is the American Arab deal which would therefore have led maybe 5-7 years typically and private equity twist sale at that point Lord Rothermere was always best poised to take over what's happened.

Is that the process is concertina because the Americans at redbird got fed up with a regular to do delay and the war lead by the editor of The Daily Telegraph against the bed so he walked away at this point Lord Rothermere comes in Risk not really.

I mean he's paying a fairly rich price, but he's the most powerful newspaper proprietor in the land and is a consolidation around 2% plus the audiences for newspaper.

This is what I'm talking about you listening who read the Daily Telegraph you read the Daily Mail very regular and I'll be thinking what is the paper I pick.

The website the diary gonna go to change or do you think it's possible for these two big institutions of British Media to be within one ownership structure about to remain themselves has a certain character and it was not going to be subsumed by The Mall but the text to be clear the Telegraph it's not the same newspaper that it was 20 years ago.

It is very much to Centre and it has a sort of mileage tone and the editor of The Daily Telegraph who Lord Rothermere has confidence in is a former male person by the way same as the editor of The Times so if you talk about there's not a lot of male men and quite a few women around and very quickly Alice how many hurdles does it have to clear for it definitely do happen well the first thing that happens if they have to actually request regulatory clearance which means the dealer has to be put before the Secretary of State Lisa Nandy and then of course she will trigger the regulatory process which will go.

Ofcom media plurality and the competition and markets authority and therefore we can expect an hour before several months in which case we will definitely come back to this on the media show Dr Alice Enders and Lionel barber.

Thank you very much indeed.

We are going to talk about the story that has taken hold in some parts of the US despite being widely discredited you remember in February President Trump signed an executive Order granting refugee status to afrikaners who he said we're being persecuted in South Africa is BBC said white farmers are Xperia a genocide that is rejected by South African president Cyril ramaphosa.

Who said it was completely false to claim that people have a certain race or culture are being targeted for persecution.

Well men's Tony O'Sullivan is Mayday documentary called misinformation white genocide and I'm delighted is his joining us from New York hello Danny just tell her something for her to how did this.

Crossover intersections of the right wing Media in the US motivated American politics history specifically over the past decade which is this major fear of demographic change and so when it comes to the trump and the Maga movement essentially people white people being afraid that they are going to be replaced.

There's some sort of dark conspiracy theories around that and also just more general change in the makeup of America and what's a century happened is you've had the president of the United States along with a very sophisticated Media infrastructure around try to paint this picture of South Africa as an example of a place of what happens what bad things happen when white people lose control.

This documentary, how did you decide who to interview and how did you approach this interviews and look I mean, do you know what we going to do with this series called misinformation.

They were very much looking as well at the issue were looking at how these narratives get created and how they are there spread.

So you know often times as part of these talks.

We will go speak to people that are pushing this mess information right.

So you want to go to this topic we spoke to people from searching across both extremes of the argument in South Africa and in the US and then just I'm in a lot of people who are caught up in the middle of it and I mean what you found in time in there is quite a lot of stuff in it and a lot of it is just directly straight up racism and some was quite shocking to hear.

But really you know what I took away from it was speaking to this soul centred around the course attacks on farmers in South Africa and the idea that is white farmers specifically that are being pregnant witches is just not true black blacks and whites are affected by crime in South Africa we met people there who did lose loved ones white South Africans who have lost loved ones in Farm attacks attacks that happen to be committed by black people and those people who you know you could nature mice might Forgive Them wanting to fall into these narratives of about race David Guetta them they've Dave's to the seen this for what it is and that they're suffering is being used in the US as a talking point.

Hi Danny is Rosie and the Studio with Katie I just want to having reported on this story in South Africa and

How does the media narrative around this issue differ between the two countries Steven the term white genocide is not something that was quite common in South Africa it's really an American talking point.

I'm in Ras I think as you know from from your area work as well.

There's only so much.

I think you can do when it comes to checking right Simon with blue in the face from sort of fact-checking this story what we tried to do in in this dark was actually go there is speak speak to the people impacted but also really try show audiences like this is how this narrative is being manufactured.

I'm sure it will pop up again in the US by you talk about the manufacturing process.

Just help us understand.

How that works.

What are the main drivers within American media that might take.

Narrative the began life in South Africa and reshape it and distributed within American media.

Yeah, I think so much of it is due to fear ride-on.

You could look and a lot of it is the white that the popularity of trump which is playing in to fear that America's in some way going to change and then really if you just look at how the platform specifically like X for me Twitter Now set up to really really incentivise the sort of conversations are particularly about raise and it's multiple layers of incentive to push a narrative like this into Stoke division like this, but thank you very much indeed coming on to speak to us.

When is the programme out Danny it is out on CNN right now and see good track down.

Thank you very much indeed.

That's Daniel Sullivan from CNN as you were saying you can watch Miss information white genocide via cnn.com via.

On television and via CNN apps speaking about Katie as we often do at the end of this program.

We should mention that if anyone listening hasn't got BBC sounds.

I'm imagining a lot of you listening do but if you haven't got BBC sounds you can find every single edition of the media show available there, so if you ever Mrs live on Radio 4 on a Wednesday afternoon you can listen to us at your leisure on BBC One advert that was we are now at the end sadly about program, but thank you to it.

Will I guess? Thank you so much for your company.

That's it from us.

Goodbye by after an Eastern father passes away.

He goes through his dad's old suitcase.

It's filled with cryptic clues be stacked German money the family tree doesn't recognise and also finds his father's birth certificate but bearing a different name from BBC Radio 4 On The History podcast I'm Charlie Northcote and I've been working with.

Eastern understands his family's dark history and how many lost a fortune worth billions today what happened to his family the business empire and all listen to the house at number for the eight on BBC sounds.