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More digital radio stations. Ofcom - finally - proposes DAB+

You can almost hear the sound of "beep, beep, vehicle reversing". After many years of dismissing DAB+ as a UK broadcasting standard, Ofcom have announced that the time of DAB+ is approaching.

More listing choice: This could double the number of digital radio stations.  Photograph: Shutterstock
More listing choice: This could double the number of digital radio stations. Photograph: Shutterstock
published on UK Free TV

From the new consultation document, Broadcast Digital Radio Technical Codes and Guidance Consultation on updates and amendments

The proposal is to allow the use of the High-Efficiency Advanced Audio Coding in addition to the MPEG-1 Audio Layer II that is used to encode the sound into the DAB broadcast. It does not change the fundamental levels, which remains Orthogonal frequency-division multiplexing.

Ofcom says, in Section 2 Introduction of alternative audio encoding: DAB+

2.4 Use of HE-AAC encoded services within a DAB multiplex has been termed DAB+. The benefits of DAB+ are that it enables audio services to be broadcast at a higher sound quality for a given bitrate than MP2 or to fit additional services into a multiplex at a lower bitrate than MP2 but with equivalent quality. This provides the opportunity to carry many more services and/or better audio quality for services operating in the same spectral occupancy.

2.5 In our 2007 consultation The Future of Radio we said that adoption of DAB+ could be desirable if this was the future direction of DAB across the world. DAB+ is now being adopted in many countries across Europe as well as Australia and other parts of the world.

2.7 It is likely that a complet change to DAB+ in the UK would be a longer term transition that would take into account the installed base of DAB-only receivers in the UK and the current relatively low level of penetration of sets that are compatible with DAB+. It is however likely to be beneficial to include the DAB+ standard into the Digital Code and to permit its limited deployment now and therefore enable the future wider adoption of the technology in the UK.

2.10 Inclusion of DAB+ in the Digital Radio Technical Code does not provide consent for services on existing multiplexes to switch to DAB+. Ofcom would however consider requests for services to switch to DAB+ from operators of existing multiplexes, taking into account the reasons for the request and the potential impact upon listeners that such a change would entail.

I am going to make a guess that this is going to please all the readers of UK Free TV!



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Comments
Tuesday, 6 May 2014
M
MikeB
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

11:01 PM

pw69: The answer is, goodnes knows! DAB+ only came in as a recognised standard in 2007, whereas DAB began in 1995. So, obviously any DAB radio purchased before 2006-7 isn't going to be DAB+. From 2009, a multi-standard chip was introduced, so that many DAB radios are also DAB+.

Now there has been about 1.9m DAB sets sold each year for the past 5 years, so in theory thats c.7.5m sets. However, as I found out the other day, although a lot of Roberts radio do have DAB+ (the Sovereign series), its difficult to see if they all do (Roberts really dont make it easy). Some cheapish little known brands do, but frankly, its really difficult to tell which ones dont, and which ones do. Even Pure, which all seem to have DAB+, may not. The Chronos 2 is described as 'UK products receive DAB/FM; non-UK products receive DAB/DAB+/DMB-Radio/FM.'. So it might have DAB+, but only if your outside the UK....

Whats even stranger is that my own digital radio (actually my only one), the Pure One Flow, does seem to have DAB/DAB+/DMB, plus FM. But since its an internet radio, you could argue that it doesn't really need it!

Frankly, I suspect the actual number of DAB+ radios is relatively low at the moment. Thats not a huge problem in the short term, but it would be nice if DAB+ was standard, if only to make life easy!

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MikeB's 2,579 posts GB flag
Thursday, 8 May 2014
M
michael.
sentiment_satisfiedGold

12:59 AM

My Pure-One-Flow died a couple of months ago. A £100 ouch! I was not aware that it was capable of DAB+ and DMB. Now I will never know. I mainly used it for webradio, but was not happy with the need to submit url data to receive non-recommended webradio sites. Selected podcasts were curtailed or cancelled after a time - with no user consultation. I would not buy another tethered webradio and now use a HUDL. This is not user-friendly for webradio, but it works well and the user has control over what is received. It is impossible to ascertain how many existing DAB radios are DAB+ compliant, but the majority of earlier purchases will only accept DAB. Mainstream DAB+ is surely as yet over the horizon.

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michael.'s 874 posts GB flag
S
Stan
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

4:06 PM

Yeah. DAB and other complex technologies are prone to failure, I could name you people whose digital radios died on them within a few months of purchase. I can guarantee you that THEY won't be buying another one, they aren't exactly cheap, are they?

FM is the true gem of radio broadcasting. May it live forever

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Stan's 27 posts GB flag
M
Mark
sentiment_satisfiedSilver

7:20 PM

Stan: I still have the Pure DRX 701-ES tuner that I bought in 2002, it's still works fine and I have never had any problems with it.

DAB is no more complicated than a digital plasma or LED TV, and nobody is suggesting that these are prone to fail.

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Mark's 181 posts GB flag
M
MikeB
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

8:01 PM

Stan: I agree with Mark - some DAB radios do fail earlier than they should, but most do not, any more than TV's, microwaves, PC's or any other electronic equipment. However, we tend to remember a relatively expensive bit of kit failing, rather than the cheap FM sets that have also gone.

michael: its true that tablets are not perfect for audio in themselves, although the speaker on Ipod Touch is surprisingly loud. However, if you've got any old radio with a 3.5mm input, then just a cheap cable will turn the radio into a speaker. I just use an old pair of PC speakers in the kitchen, which do work OK.

Much better is to go bluetooth, and you can get adapters from about £15. I keep meaning to use the 30w bluetooth speakers one of my wife friends bought in a panic for my wife's birthday party, after the person supplying the music tried to up the price. Considering they were £30, they are surprisingly good.

What actually went wrong with the Pure? Even if the DAB part has gone, if wifi is still usable, then you can use the Pure app with it. Admittedly its not a very good app (the Sonos one is a lot better), but at least it might work!!

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MikeB's 2,579 posts GB flag
C
Chris Gardiner
8:43 PM

I had five Pure Evoke 3s and they all failed within a few months of new and all were replaced. After the fifth one I swapped it for two Roberts radios and have had no more trouble several years later.

Like Stan I tend to stick with FM, at least then I can have all five radios on in the house while I move from room to room and the audio is in sync. Also I can listen to BBC local radio.

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Chris Gardiner's 7 posts GB flag
MikeP
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

10:10 PM

It is a fact of manufacturing these days that many products are designed to have a shorter useful life than was the norm a few years ago. A few examples from my experience, a valve analogue TV set (CRT and all that) might last 15 years (but may needs a few repairs in that time), a semiconductor one might go for 20 with repairs, an analogue radioof 1950/1960 vintage was likely to last 30 years. Now so few devices seem to be repaired, though it is often possible, and they are discarded far sooner than before. A tumble dryer might actually last 20 years with a few repairs but people are chucking them away after 5 if something basically simple fails (I've just repaired ours, 12 years old, simple thermostat replacement for £6.99). Cars are designed for a shorter working life too, my Dad used to have a 1937 Austin that wasn't retired by the subsequent owner until 3 years ago! Try doing that with a modern car!

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MikeP's 3,056 posts GB flag
Friday, 9 May 2014
C
Charles Stuart
sentiment_satisfiedSilver

4:15 PM
Bristol

The big problem with FM is that it's fine as long as you stay in one place. Try driving around or taking a train and you're constantly retuning. RDS isn't that good because it only kicks in when the signal is weak and then one gets constant squelching and hiss until it locks onto a better signal. Sometimes it simply tunes the radio into a totally different station. However, RDS could work better if radios had two FM receivers with one constantly searching for the strongest signal. Therefore, apart from the problem of an insufficient number of transmitters and those that exist not having a strong enough signal, DAB does work much better than FM for long-distance (surface) travel.

With regard to Pure, I think that the problem may be with the brand and not the technology. I've had no problems with Roberts, Panasonic or an Argos own-brand Hi-Fi separates DAB unit. My experience of Pure has been limited to an in-car FM to DAB adaptor unit that still works fine but the rubber sucker attachment breaks repeatedly and needs to be replaced, which they've done at no charge.

Recently I went by coach for a day trip to Cardiff. Some of the time I listened to Absolute Radio via their mobile phone app. I was quite surprised by just how good Internet radio was in a vehicle and how little of my monthly data allowance was used. I used far more data watching a short video on YouTube (Meow Mix by Cyriak). How long before there are Internet radios installed in cars with their own dedicated SIMs?

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Charles Stuart's 159 posts GB flag
Charles's: mapC's Freeview map terrainC's terrain plot wavesC's frequency data C's Freeview Detailed Coverage
S
Stan
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

7:13 PM

Well yeah, the more ordinary FM radios can sometimes fail, but that doesn't happen very often, and they are simple to repair. And in the event of some mystery breakdown which defeats the average radio enthusiast, or is uneconomical to sort out, a new one can be bought for very cheap.

I still struggle to think why anyone would listen to music on DAB. If I want to listen to music broadcast IN MONO... then I will just switch to MW.

DAB is NOT always superior to FM, far from it. It was never meant to replace FM and other Analogue broadcasting anyway. In fact, it's becoming clearer than ever to many that DAB was Dead And Buried from the word go.

Okay, DAB is superior to MW. WOW. That's really impressive, considering MW is a technology from the 1920's (approaching 100 years old!!!)

DAB vs FM??? Technology is supposed to progress, not regress.

There will, realistically, always be FM broadcasting, in some form. All will NOT be roses for DAB after any daft "switch-over". It will, in fact, be facing ever-stiffer competition from an emerging commercial FM sector at a local level.

LONG LIVE FM!!!!

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Stan's 27 posts GB flag
MikeP
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

8:17 PM

Charles Stuart:
I like your suggestion of a dual tuner radio system, especially for a car. My experience over a great many years driving arounnd the UK and other countries is that VHF FM is generally superior when the signal strength is sufficient but leaving then served area of one transmitter for another leaves the effect you describe. But if the radio had two tuners they could be designed, with suitable software controls, to seek the best signal for the service being listened to. As you say, RDS is useful but has problems.

DAB in cars just doesn't work for me. The fairly rural county I live in is poorly covered by DAB sources so it is often so bad you can't listen at all. I'm waiting to be convinced that DAB+ has the answer as that doesn't appear to address the availability of a good enough signal for the data to be decoded without lots of errors and 'dropouts'.

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MikeP's 3,056 posts GB flag
C
Charles Stuart
sentiment_satisfiedSilver

10:23 PM
Bristol

MikeP, in contrast, I live in an urban area and travel to and from urban and suburban areas. In the places I visit regularly I have few problems with DAB. There's a null point near Membury Services on the M4 and the area between Warminster and Shrewton is poorly served. Also, reception along the Sussex coast is zilch. But in Bristol, Bath, Surrey, London and all along the M3 and M25 there are no problems. If these areas with poor service could be served, DAB would be fine for me.

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Charles Stuart's 159 posts GB flag
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Saturday, 10 May 2014
S
Stan
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

12:14 PM

A DAB radio converter for a car costs £150. Apart from a few gadget geeks not many people are likely to bother with it, especially as the end result really does depend on where you are.

There is no real audible difference between DAB and FM, provided both signals are good. If anything, music is superior quality on FM as at least it's stereo quality. Therefore, until something comes along that will change that, FM is here to stay, if only on a local level.


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Stan's 27 posts GB flag
P
Peter
1:41 PM

Better late than never I suppose - but I also suspect many listeners have discovered the better quality of internet radio (& its worldwide source) since the early days of a Gov in denial about the superior quality of FM (even when compressed).

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Peter's 5 posts GB flag
Sunday, 11 May 2014
Rog Parsons
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

6:27 PM

Lets have an end to this feeding aspirins to the corpse of digital radio, the BBC, co-illusion government and God knows who else has a little finger in this moulding pie are wasting more and more money of licence payers, share holders and very naive radio purchasers who were conned rotten by BBC and a few commercial station like Classic FM making unsubstantiated claims of 'super CD quality' sound, which upon demonstration proved very much otherwise - so listeners returned and re-tuned to FM and AM. BBC even tried to force listeners to go DAB by using certain analogue-used frequencies the listeners were previously enjoying - to 'test' such as DRM ! , the obvious untruths couldn't do it, listeners are not sheep to be hurdled and penned, so other methods of persuasion were tried - after all how many £M had been wasted? Now, in sheer desperation , it can be the only reason, they the digital lobby in government (EU elections, general election, BBC charter and commercial companies going bust) staunchly supported by the posh chaps at Ofcom , who time after time have compromised on broadcast sound quality to give the money men more quantity- the latest admission of failure to be flagged-up is the long denied move to make those existing DAB sets obsolete in the same way the conventional reliable radios with LW,MW, SW and FM should according to those now huddled in the corner fingers in mouths with silly mindless smiles consigned to land-fill. They have gone too far to admit they cocked it all up, so rather than falling on their 'all new things are better' superannuated swords they proclaim " You know what we said last year, month, week ago we definitely wouldn't do - well we're doing it ' so throw out your hardly ever used DAB set which kept making funny noises or going off and here's a new more expensive set which will still make noises and go off .... Can we chaps (at Ofcom) get our golden pay-offs and OBE's at the door? ..................................

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Rog Parsons's 38 posts GB flag
Monday, 12 May 2014
Ian
sentiment_satisfiedGold

2:04 PM

A fellow cynic, I like it.

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Ian's 497 posts GB flag
C
Charles Stuart
sentiment_satisfiedSilver

6:04 PM
Bristol

"Lets have an end to this feeding aspirins to the corpse of digital radio"

OK, when you can find FM space for stations like Planet Rock and Absolute 80s. Until then, you're welcome not to listen to DAB (or any other digital format) but I will, along with many others. The fact is that I am not served by any of the analogue stations, except for one local station here in Bristol. I like DAB for its ease of use in the car and the fact that it has brought some variety to the UK's otherwise very dowdy selection of radio stations. Only Radio 4 and Radio 5 Live seem to have anything worthwhile on analogue and I rarely listen to them because the programmes I like are usually at inconvenient times. Perhaps I should look at iPlayer.

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Charles Stuart's 159 posts GB flag
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MikeP
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

8:36 PM

For me, my taste in music does not include the stations Charles mentions, so they are no loss.
FM radios are just as easy to use as DAB ones so no gain/loss there - I've been using them at home and in cars for fifty years+.
The stations I like for information and entertainment are available on FM and I can get them both at home and on the move in the UK. So the benefit of DAB or DAB+ for me is nil - especially as I prefer the true stereo and reproduction quality afforded by a good FM radio (but not the 'cheap' ones!).

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MikeP's 3,056 posts GB flag
M
michael
sentiment_satisfiedGold

9:56 PM

The planners and bean-counters would doubtless prefer to have everything on one platform. It would provide for all tastes and be more cost-effective. A myriad of DAB+ transmitters and relays might match this thinking, but would not be feasible until the life-span of the existing fleet of DAB radios has expired... The wider choice of stations is the most convincing advantage of DAB. New transmitters might be "upgradable" to DAB+ come the day. It will be interesting to see how far the planned expansion of DAB networks will de facto equal FM coverage. the future offering a Due to propagation characteristics, there are concerns that AM and FM now fill gaps that DAB at higher frequencies will skip over, even if all the planned relays are implemented. Coverage and services in sparsely populated areas face degradation. The advice will then doubtless be : switch to webradio - which however is tethered to a router and expensive equipment. 3/4G would be a technically feasible solution, but only when coverage is far better and affordable flatrates apply. We can expect a two-tier society : those living in major centres and along the motorways who will have good static and mobile DAB coverage - and those who don't meet one or both of these criteria. It is difficult to see the future offering a better, affordable service, sadly.


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michael's 874 posts GB flag
M
MikeB
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

9:57 PM

Charles Stuart: In reply to your earlier question about car radios having a streaming function, I think BMW has started introducing them. There is an interesting article here as well all about the history of car radios, etc 13 car audio milestones from AM to MP3

And i agree that the variety thats available from digital is valued by a great many people. MikeP might be fine with just FM (and my wife likes listening to Heart FM, so bad reception on FM or DAB might be a blessing), but I think the BBC World SErvice, Radio 6 Extra, etc are great - and they are not available on FM. DAB coverage will improve, and DAB radios will continue to fall in cost, as will the cost of streaming.

I suspect there will be a mixture of all three for most people - FM, and increasingly DAB and streaming. BTW - Iplayer is really useful (there is a radio version, which particularly easy to use), and of course you can download podcasts (you can schedule them).
Frankly, a lot of the time we just use our Ipods (my wife's playlists sound a lot like Heart FM anyway, but at least there are no ads..). You get to chose your music, etc, and gives you even more choice.

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MikeB's 2,579 posts GB flag
S
Steve P
sentiment_satisfiedGold

11:31 PM

I am very happy for there to be DAB radio so long as I am allowed to continue to receive the main BBC radios on the dozens of FM radios my family have; most integrated into other expensive equipment that I do not wish and could not afford to replace

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Steve P's 1,173 posts GB flag
Tuesday, 13 May 2014
M
michael
sentiment_satisfiedGold

10:01 PM

I would be greatly relieved if the status quo persisted : a mixture of DAB, FM and AM, but fear costs of duplication will thwart this. Without FM and AM as now, many in outlying and low-lying areas will lose local BBC radio and Radio5, which simply do not "get through" on DAB - despite offical pretense. The iPlayer is great for those with a respectable download speed. Again, in outlying areas far from the BT exchange, the iPlayer is not an option. Broadband subscriptions should be a function of the actual download speed. I pay the same as suscribers with 10x my broadband speed. The bottom line remains : in populated areas and astride motorways, there will be a good service. Further afield services will be patchy and unsatisfactory. Maybe the discriminated masses could be kept quiet with free Kindle thingy downloads instead...

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michael's 874 posts GB flag
Wednesday, 14 May 2014
A
Anthony
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

9:08 AM
Accrington

I agree Michael;there are areas of the UK where DAB is either poor patchy or non-existant even with the relevant transmitters set up especially areas with mountains and hills and isolated rural areas in the wilds of scotland ireland and wales, also, many DAB transmitters also use very puny and inadequate low power levels for transmission which doesn't help either.

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Anthony's 70 posts GB flag
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Sunday, 18 May 2014
N
Nick Anderson
11:06 PM

Why is there apparently not a single domestic portable radio on the market that incorporates DAB, FM and AM on the market and seemingly is only available for the vehicle market?

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Nick Anderson's 4 posts GB flag
Wednesday, 4 June 2014
N
Nick Anderson
10:17 AM

The problem with DAB transmissions regarding the broadcasters is that there is a higher charge for those stations broadcasting in stereo so that consequently those community stations such as Angel Radio from Havant using DAB to increase their very limited FM coverage can only afford to use mono DAB transmissions. This also applied to national Jazz FM who could only afford to rent space on mono and who now having given up their allocation nationally to LBC from London. DAB should be made more affordable by a reduction in operating charges to the stations using their services.

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Nick Anderson's 4 posts GB flag
Monday, 16 June 2014
B
Brian M. Leahy
11:00 PM

My trusty old portable radio passed away last week so I went on couple of Radio Forums to ask what I should replace it with. It was generally agreed that DAB is a waste of space with one of the ant points being that a portable uses batteries 20 time as fast as an FM radio.

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Brian M. Leahy's 14 posts GB flag
Tuesday, 17 June 2014
A
Anthony
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

4:56 AM
Accrington

Brian M. Leahy: you are right dab does consume batteries like no tomorrow. I wont touch dab with a bargepole because of this and the mediocre quality, also dab reception is poor in large areas of the unitedkingdom with patchy poor or non existant reception in some parts, also many stations are mono as well. I use a sony cd radio cassette from argos because I prefer fm being crisper clearer and with lovely stereo quality to boot. Beats dab anyday.A

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Anthony's 70 posts GB flag
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J Peter Wilson
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

7:25 AM

Anthony: I need both DAB and FM to listen to the stations of my choice where we live in East Yorkshire.

I am able to receive a range of radio stations on DAB, such as Premier, UCB UK, Smooth (only available on DAB in Yorkshire), 6Music & Radio 4 Extra, that are not available on analogue radio while on FM I can listen to my local station Yorkshire Coast Radio (YCR).

For us the reception of stations on DAB is far superior to that on FM and this is perhaps due to the fact that all three DAB multiplexes - BBC, Digital 1 & Humberside - have some of their transmitters on Buckton Barn whereas the FM network transmitters are many miles away either on Holme Moss or Belmont. The only exception is YCR that is also on Buckton Barn.

Until all the DAB multiplexes have added their additional transmitters there will be parts of the country that will have patchy reception. I notice that the BBC is still working on adding their additional transmitters in both the Red Rose and White Rose counties which means that when I visit parts of Upper Nidderdale and around Skipton that I also find DAB reception patchy.

Finally it is interesting to note that all our PURE portable DAB/FM radios work fine on their portable power packs but that in some rooms of our home the FM reception on these radio suffers from interference where as the DAB signal is fine.

It therefore is not that one transmission system is superior to another but that for many years to come we will need both DAB and FM in order that we will be able to hear a wide choice of radio stations.

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J Peter Wilson's 30 posts GB flag
G
Garth
10:54 AM
Dunkeld

Hi,
I'm seeking assistance please. Recently moved into the Dunkeld area of Scotland and want to set up good FM reception, to link to a hifi tuner/receiver. Never had to do this before, but looking at the options, I think a Half Wave FM dipole aerial should do the job, but I am halfway between FM transmitters in Perth and Pitlochry, both pretty well on the limits from what I can see.
Pitlochry is marginally better according to the maps, but is possibly going to be affected by hills. Any advice would be welcome, particularly on mounting the aerial.
Thanks.

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Garth's 1 post GB flag
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B
bored
2:21 PM

DAB is no interest because it is an absurdly overpriced excessively complex
and totally pointless technology.
Perfect sound quality is mostly irrelevant on a radio thats not even an issue.

Digital - Just because you can - doesn't mean you should.

fm is simple cheap, simple and produces more reliable and better quality results.

There is no reason for DAB to even exist.


link to this comment
bored's 5 posts GB flag
M
MikeB
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

6:14 PM

bored: And yet it does exist. And via a DAB/FM radio which can be bought for just £16.99, I could listen to 6Music, 4Extra, The World Service and those things which are only otherwise available on LW at huge cost to the licence fee payer.

If you only want analogue, thats fine. But do you just watch analogue TV? And is colour more than we need?

Brian M. Leahy: I'm not surprised that DAB got such views on an internet forum - DAB tends to polarise debate (as you can see). However, my Pure DAB/FM/Internet radio is fine, and if you ask to listen in a shop to two radio's of the same type, one playing on FM, and the other on DAB, while there will be a difference, its not as dramatic as some would have you believe. Remember that you want a portable radio - so the speaker is hardly going to be huge, only a couple of watts. The supposed difference in quality is not going to be particularly noticable. And DAB coverage will improve.

Its perfectly true that DAB does suck up far more power than FM (although the chips coming along will greatly reduce the power needed), but why not just use FM when out and about, unless you need DAB stations? But if you go for an FM only radio, you cannot listen to DAB only stations - and there are a fair number of them.

In fact, why buy a radio at all? Even the cheapest mobile phone has an FM radio, and if you have a smart phone, then you can listen to almost anything via an app, using relatively little data. Thats exactly what 'the youth' are doing.

I think J Peter Wilson made excellent points - and he's right, both systems will be needed for a fair while to come.

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MikeB's 2,579 posts GB flag
M
michael
sentiment_satisfiedGold

8:05 PM

DAB is kinda like improved AM : more stations than FM, acceptable audio if not too far from the transmitter. They could do better... I hope that DAB and FM continue to co-exist for many moons to come - with AM retained for low-lying and distant areas.

What will happen in Scotland in the event of a YES remains a conundrum. Some form of compromise would presumably ensue, with a big fistful of Licence-fee Euros being handed over Hadrian's Wall to ensure continued coverage of BBC output. I would be somewhat wary of investing in new kit until, post September, the crystal ball reveals the future. Until then, internet radio is probably the safest and most cost-effective option.

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michael's 874 posts GB flag
MikeP
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

8:37 PM

MikeB
Remember that using a mobile phone whilst driving is illegal and in many cases the sound output of a mobile is just not loud enough to be heard in a car when not held against the ear - and not all cars are equiped to transfer the output to the in-built radio system. Most cars have an FM radio and an increasing number are getting DAB, but like all electronic equipment they do go wrong.
Digital, by its nature, requires more power than analogue to process the signals received into hearable sounds - it's the nature of electronics. Whilst newer silicon chips may be able to perform about as well as current ones while using less energy, the requirements of signal processing between FM and DAB are very significant.
Portable radios, of any type, will inevitably have poorer reproduction than a system designed for use in a more or less permanent location in a room due to the size and weight of the required pair of loudspeakers and the necessary enclosures. A portable system has a significant weight limit that does not affect the room systems.

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MikeP's 3,056 posts GB flag
M
MikeB
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

8:56 PM

MikeP: BMW is introducing streaming technology to its cars, and many people already use their mobiles to stream radio whilst in their cars - the audio is just bluetoothed to their car audio system, or (because my car is a couple of year old and low end), just connect it via a 3.5mm jack. Its how I connect my Ipod Touch.

In fact most manufacturers are now allowing smartphones to connect with their car systems via apps Aha radio explained: streaming audio hits the road | News | TechRadar As you can see, streaming is going to be big
The Future of Car Radio - CEA


I agree with the sound quality of portables - some are better than others, but they are a small speaker, in a small case. Of course if you want great sound, there are lots of portable speakers around, with the Bose Soundlink Mini being the current works favourite. Not cheap, but very good.

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MikeB's 2,579 posts GB flag
Wednesday, 18 June 2014
M
michael
sentiment_satisfiedGold

10:16 PM

"MikeP: BMW is introducing streaming technology to its cars, ... "

STUPENDIFEROUS NEWS ! Humbly crave encrypted communication of the next winning lottery numbers as my rural hedge-scratched rust-bucket stream-wilts, digitally speaking... FM swishes as if waterboarding, AM is hissy, but pleasing.

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michael's 874 posts GB flag
M
MikeB
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

10:21 PM

michael: If you want hissy AM, then thats fine. But if you want to listen to the World Service, you could just buy a cheap mobile phone and plug it into the radio - like the rest of us...

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MikeB's 2,579 posts GB flag
M
michael
sentiment_satisfiedGold

11:02 PM

MikeB - where there is a stable mobile signal, that is, technically, the mode of choice. In many locations there is no reliable 3G signal, as here. Even where there is a stable 3/4G signal, extended listening eats into the monthly download allocation. I don't "want" hissy AM, but that is often the least-bad option. Not an option now, sadly, but DRM on long and mediumwave would have offered a better compromise for listeners and broadcasters alike. My DAB radio gets me no stations of interest which I cannot receive on an AM/FM radio.

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michael's 874 posts GB flag
M
MikeB
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

11:11 PM

michael: I must admit I dont really listen to the radio in the car, I just plug in the Ipod. To be fair, when my wife is listening to her Ipod in the car, there is little difference between her favourite playlist and listening live to Heart FM, but thats life.

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MikeB's 2,579 posts GB flag
Thursday, 19 June 2014
S
Steve P
sentiment_satisfiedGold

11:26 AM

MikeP I don't think it is illegal to use a phone for radio; satnav, etc.

Or, indeed, for phoning if hands free.

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Steve P's 1,173 posts GB flag
Briantist
sentiment_very_satisfiedOwner

4:07 PM

Mobile phones and driving | AA says

"It has been illegal to use a hand held mobile phone while driving since December 2003. ...

While it is an offence to be seen using a hand held phone, regardless of whether driving has been affected, this is not the case for hands-free phones.

However, if you are seen not to be in control of a vehicle while using a hands-free phone you can be prosecuted for that offence. The penalties are the same as for using a hand-held phone"

Using an i-Pod while Driving

"However, following a policy revision in December 2007,will now be treated as dangerous driving - meaning that the driver was avoidably and dangerously distracted. If charged and found guilty, drivers face a 2 year prison sentence. Take note that this policy revision does not relate specifically to mobile phones, it also applies to satellite navigation systems, iPods and MP3 players, and can be extended to similar devices that distract motorists from their driving."

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Briantist's 38,929 posts GB flag
M
michael
9:06 PM

Anything that might constitute "driving without due care and attention" or not being in full control of the vehicle can be an offense - and rightly so. Even fumblig with a car radio or inserting a CD or eating, chatting etc. can result in reduced attention. A grey area, but with clear guidlines. As far as car-radios are concerned, high-tech DAB and FM radios are incontestably the safest. 3G-streaming might well become a viable option in future car-radios, but would be far less safe via a phone.

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michael's 3 posts GB flag
M
MikeB
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

10:37 PM

michael: Rightly, people should be careful not to be distracted by mobiles, etc whilst driving. And ROSPA and other bodies certainly say there is a great deal of research that mobiles are a distraction, even while using hands-free equipment.

However, I did find this webpage about the statistics of how distracted people actually are by mobile phones: Accident statistics , using data from Australia and the US. They (surprisingly) concluded that only in 0.9% of cases were mobile phones a cause of an accident, the same percentage due to 'Changing CD/cassette/radio'.

Frankly, fiddling about with a LW radio in your car trying to tune it in is a distraction, as is using your mobile to take or make a call. However, since modern mobiles will often allow you to use voice command to do many functions, and its just touching the app on the screen to bring up a station, it could be that streaming is no more dangerous than trying to find Radio 2 on FM.

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MikeB's 2,579 posts GB flag
Friday, 20 June 2014
M
michael
sentiment_satisfiedGold

8:54 PM

MikeB : I am sure that with a bit of phrase-tweaking we would totally concur. Forsooth, we should both be in high places earning megabucks wordcrafting pertinent legislation. This afternoon I was overtaken at speedlimit+15mph on a blind curve by a suave sporty thing. Had an oncoming driver been distracted by tuning in Stravinsky or Jimmy H at that moment (I like both) ... I think I will stay home for a week and listen to my crystal set in relative safety. BTW, my LW relic was permanently tuned to 162kHz, so no twiddling distraction. I had to rescue it from the former deceased motor and install it in its successor :-) The successor therof does not permit installation of a radio-of-choice, so I mostly drive in silent chagrin. I tried slipping in one of my favourtie 78rpm classics, but it refused to enter the designated slot. I do, however, have a cunning plan to build a 162kHz receiver which I could plug into the i-thingy socket of the new motor's FM/MW radio, which incidentally offers pathetic audio quality. Although a new on the market, the new German motor does not offer a DAB option - not even as a retrofit. Hmm... I am fully aware that I be one of few on this or any other planet with such excentric predilections.

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michael's 874 posts GB flag
M
MikeB
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

10:13 PM

michael : Stavinsky was once regarded as very dangerous, so perhaps tuning to listen to it on a blind curve is dicing with death...

Interesting project to take a LW radio and feed it into a FM via 3.5mm jack...Let us know how it goes, if only to see how it works.

Honestly, I enjoy driving without any other noise at all, but since I have two children, silence is rare and to be enjoyed.


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MikeB's 2,579 posts GB flag
Thursday, 7 August 2014
N
Nedbod
sentiment_satisfiedGold

6:03 PM

I hope the reality matches the promises with DAB+ and that all stations get a decent sound quality. What will happen to OLD DAB, will it get switched off before FM ?

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Nedbod's 619 posts GB flag
M
michael
sentiment_satisfiedGold

8:51 PM

MikeB : I tried a mock-up. TDA 1072 homebrew LW receiver with ferrite aerial tuned to 162kHz on the rear window feeding a micro FM transmitter. Works fine - except on a bend when the ferrite is momentarily in a null :-) Mark II will address this...

Netbod : I would settle for drop-out-free DAB coverage almost everywhere. Utopia is fine for musing, but their beancounters don't do that !

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michael's 874 posts GB flag
Saturday, 9 August 2014
Rog Parsons
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

9:39 PM

Whats all this about 162 kHz ? (France International) perhaps 198 kHz or perhaps RTE Radio 1 on 252 kHz also LW and easily tuned on any AM car audio without any fiddling about if you've taken the trouble to set up the pre-set buttons using the sets instructions . This surely has nothing to do with DAB or DAB+ both proven unpopular and often unusable if the bits are blocked !
Even FM has some problems AM does not have regarding screening - AM gets noisy but does retain some signal DAB goes off FM fades in tunnels or momentarily under bridges or when in hilly areas . Take the 'water' out of AM if it gives you a giggle but after 80 very reliable years of massive popularity it beats the lower garments off 'digital', there are plenty of Continental Medium and Long Wave AM stations - only BBC is snotty about it. Also if you're listening to (presumably) France on 162 - try getting that station in a car on DAB or DAB+ ---- I don't think so ;-(


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Rog Parsons's 38 posts GB flag
Tuesday, 12 August 2014
S
Steve P
sentiment_satisfiedGold

11:52 AM

Just been in NI with a hirecar with DAB.

Utterly useless. Continually cutting in/out with every dip or bend.

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Steve P's 1,173 posts GB flag
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michael
sentiment_satisfiedGold

8:09 PM

Rog Parsons : "...easily tuned on any AM car audio without any fiddling about if you've taken the trouble to set up the pre-set buttons using the sets instructions . This surely has nothing to do with DAB..." Please note : like many others, my mediocre new-car radio only offers medium wave or FM. The LW gizmo enables me to listen to 153, 162, 177, 183, 198, 207, 234 or 252kHz. A similar gizmo could feed DAB, if receivable, to the car FM radio or, where available, to the AF input socket designed for smart-whatsits.

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michael's 874 posts GB flag
Wednesday, 20 August 2014
J Peter Wilson
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

9:33 AM

My car - Fiat Panda - came with only an AM/FM car radio and so I bought the Fiat car radio unit into which I transferred the JVC DAB/FM/LW/MW from my previous car. I then had a proper DAB/FM/AM antenna installed to replace the previous antenna. I can now listen to DAB national stations and local stations (where there are local multiplexes) as well as local FM stations as I travel across Yorkshire and other parts of the country. I now hardly ever listen to LW or MW.

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J Peter Wilson's 30 posts GB flag
M
michael
sentiment_satisfiedGold

9:28 PM

Envy! Some reception areas are more equal than others. I listen to UK stations on FM where available and switch to AM where not. In these 'ere parts, DAB favours hilltops. My particular foible just happens to be for LW stations beyond La Manche. Hence the gizmo. I am, however, now tempted to check out the JVC. Thanks for the pointer!

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michael's 874 posts GB flag
Sunday, 24 August 2014
Watlingfen
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

12:40 PM

Am I wrong or do DAB receivers - car or home - NOT RECEIVE DAB+ , Seems like spouting about more stations which are unreceivable anyway makes this item more farce than fancy - and even less fact. No doubt , at a price , DAB with DAB+ receivers with or more likely without LW as they're are almost certain with even British or German badging to be made in PRC will be fitted as standard in VW, Porsche, BMW or Morgan etc, and folks will be conned into buying new 'bricks' for their kitchens (like Dave Camoron) which they will after the 'novelty period' simply dust at intervals having tired of station 'block-out' where bit stream rate is too low and got out the older and more reliable FM/AM tranny . I realise the bias shown by this web site for the 'Emperor's new clothes -digital' but couldn't there be a fairer coverage of the system of radio which has served us very reliably for 80 years (AM) and which is capable of world coverage - whereas DAB, DAB+ are neither capable of full international service or even regional service without hundreds of 'mobile phone' masts to replace massive but very few AM/FM towers. No sir DAB , digital radio, is two steps forward - three steps back.

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Watlingfen's 38 posts GB flag
M
Michel
8:09 PM

Watlingfen: Citizens are enjoined to study the "Little Red Book". It will then become clear that The Party is always right...

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Michel's 2 posts GB flag
M
Mark
sentiment_satisfiedSilver

8:13 PM

Watlingfen: Most of the new DAB radios now on sale in the UK will also receive DAB+ stations straight out of the box. For a few years Pure and others were locking the DAB+ part of the chip in their UK models, so these require a software upgrade to unlock them, but this policy has now ceased. The UK spec of most models now includes DAB+ so if you buy one you need to check that it's one of the newer radios (it should have a DAB+ sticker on it).

As far as I know all standard-fit DAB car radios include DAB+ so that they can be used in continental Europe.

The first DAB+ stations in the UK should be launched next year.

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Mark's 181 posts GB flag
Monday, 25 August 2014
dave
sentiment_satisfiedSilver

12:24 AM

I presume my old evoke 1 will not be upgradable to dab+ though ?

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dave's 126 posts GB flag
dave
sentiment_satisfiedSilver

12:25 AM

I presume my old evoke 1 will not be upgradable to dab+ though ?

I hope we get a country station btw !

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dave's 126 posts GB flag
D
denier murch
12:21 PM

dave: I have lost signal on tacelston transmitter for all BBC stations and sky news others o.k. have retuned several times and the signal is too poor on this band with. This has happened overnight what has happened to this transmitter?.

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denier murch's 1 post GB flag
S
SeeMoreDigital
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

1:09 PM

Hi Denier Murch,

Perhaps your question would be better asked and answered within [url=https://ukfree.tv/txdetail.php?a=TM131958]this topic[/url]...

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SeeMoreDigital's 40 posts GB flag
S
SeeMoreDigital
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

1:13 PM

Hi Denier Murch, Perhaps your question would be better asked and answered within Tacolneston (Norfolk, England) transmitter | ukfree.tv - 12 years of independent, free digital TV advice this topic...

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SeeMoreDigital's 40 posts GB flag
Sunday, 7 September 2014
N
nick
sentiment_satisfiedGold

12:03 AM

more stations? We can only get BBC on DAB, how about giving us the ones others can get before anything new?

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nick's 437 posts GB flag
Brian Wright
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

4:40 PM

Not many folks have got interested in the DAB radio's because I can say that most of them DO NOT DO WHAT IS SAID ON THE BOX. The quality is very rarely better than the FM and the ability to receive the same programs on the DAB sets as were received on my FM set in the same position and with its integral aerial. I can only get it working to receive the programs available by connecting the DAB set to an loft aerial via my aerial distribution system.
One only has to visit their local john Lewis store to see the vast quantity of DAB receivers to notice the fact that they are not selling that well.
When FM was launched back in the 1950's everyone wanted an FM HiFi set. We were informed from the outset that a proper aerial was required and most people accepted this requirement.
But with the launch of DAB we were informed that they would work fine and the portables would work fine on batteries and with the inbuilt rod aerial. 10 years on and not much has changed. You need an external aerial for the DAB to work properly unless you are close to a local transmitter and they do not work very long on a set of batteries because they are so "power Hungry" .

As for DAB + Unless the broadcasters give us CD quality without the compression and low bit rates that most broadcasters transmit today we shall just get more of the same.

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Brian Wright's 77 posts GB flag
M
MikeB
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

8:43 PM

Brian Wright:'You need an external aerial for the DAB to work properly unless you are close to a local transmitter'

True, but most of us tend to have a fairly local transmitter (just as we do for FM), and more are being rolled out to fill various gaps. Yes, the current chips are relatively power hungrey, but of course most radios are either plugged into the mains or in cars, something which is exactly the same for FM. And the new generations of chips will be much more energy efficent. I have a DAB radio in the kitchen, which has an ordinary aerial. The only time it has problem is when my washing machine gets to a certain point in the cycle. I can switch to FM or the internet when that happens. Its not a big deal.

'One only has to visit their local john Lewis store to see the vast quantity of DAB receivers to notice the fact that they are not selling that well.'

I think your obervation is showing confirmation bias. The 'vast quanity' of DAB receivers points out the fact that they are selling, and in fact I had to order a Pure radio last week for a lady, because we had run out of stock locally. You'll see lots of radios on the shelf, with the multi-coloured JL radio's 'bulked out' to show all the colours and so customers can just pick one up and take it to the till.

Out of the 96 radio's on the JL website, 83 are DAB, and most of the FM only radio's are small portable or pocket ones. Its not just JL. Currys website shows 63 radios, with 42 DAB. DAB sales are consistantly 2m units a year. Analogue radios have much higher sales (but remember they cost at little as a £1), but the numbers are falling rapidly year on year. Retailers have to go where the market is - if DAB was vastly unpopular, we wouldn't bother to stock many models. Yet the opposite is true.

I have repeatedly said that I really dont care what people listen on, but its important to look at the actual state of the market, and not dismiss a technology using what are at best relatively minor issues for most customers. DAB isn't perfect (bitrate should be higher, for instance), but its not the disaster same make it out to be.

In fact a recent report pointed out that DAB and even radio itself might have a problem, because younger people are using their smart phones to listen to music via the net, and they are getting out of the habit of listening to Radio 1, for instance, in favour of Spotify and other streaming services and of course their own music. On the other hand, Radio 6 Music has done very well, which is a digital only station.

We are looking at a mixed market, but the trend towards a generally digital listening platform (whatever that might be) is fairly clear.

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MikeB's 2,579 posts GB flag
Friday, 17 October 2014
S
sharealam
sentiment_satisfiedSilver

12:54 PM

parliament radio on digital radio re scan required

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sharealam's 226 posts GB flag
Sunday, 19 October 2014
Briab Wright
sentiment_satisfiedBronze

5:15 PM

Mike B,True, but most of us tend to have a fairly local transmitter (just as we do for FM), and more are being rolled out to fill various gaps. Yes, the current chips are relatively power hungry, but of course most radios are either plugged into the mains

I agree Mike ,I am not anti DAB or stuck in the past but I like HiFi and have an excellent lounge audio system but living in Cox Green, Maidenhead using my £120 Roberts and my Daughters Pure radio for my Kitchen listening I can confirm they do not work properly, unless they are both connected to a loft aerial. My previous £30 FM radio works fine on its rod aerial. Obviously I like the "extras that are available on DAB broadcasts such as the artist names etc.
I have to agree that DAB is adequate for the masses but unlike Europe,US & Japan we have lost out to the Audio diarrhoea effect and have lost our pride in giving great audio quality.
As you have indicated Mike we will have more bandwidth with DAB+ but I but I won't be betting that it will be used for better audio quality.

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Briab Wright's 77 posts GB flag
Wednesday, 17 August 2016
N
Nedbod
sentiment_satisfiedGold

11:03 PM

Any idea what bit rate the new DAB+ stations will be operating on. The quality on many DAB stations is now so poor that I can't stand to listen to them. Even Radio 4 is in mono most evenings now from 7pm and broadcasts the World Service on R4 FM & DAB in higher quality than its own network. THis is just before its flagship drama THE ARCHERS which is made in Stereo but can only be heard in Stereo on FM, TV and On-line.

I actually went into the loft last year to bring my FM ROTEL tuner back down to the lounge as it now gives a better sound quality than most DAB stations, with the possible exception of BBC Radio 3 DAB, the BBC's least listened to National FM station :)

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Nedbod's 619 posts GB flag
Thursday, 18 August 2016
R
Richard Cooper
sentiment_satisfiedGold

9:31 AM

Nedbod: Good Morning, Netbod. In order to answer your question we need you to inform us of the names of the new DAB+ stations to which you are referring before one or more of us can let you know the proposed bit rates. Richard, Norwich.

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Richard Cooper's 471 posts GB flag
MikeP
sentiment_very_satisfiedPlatinum

1:50 PM

Nedbod:

DAB broadcast with low bit rates is definitely poor compared to 'standard' FM transmissions. To reach anywhere near the same sound quality overall would need a much high sample rate and a much higher bit rate, which takes up so much of the available spectrum that it becomes uneconomic.

Us older (I started experimenting at the age of 8 in 1953) electronics engineers have, for many years, had a saying comparing analogue and digital: Analogue is nearly always right but digital is nearly always wrong. If you think about it, an analogue signal can be affected by noise (often in the form of 'spikes' on the waveform) so you would hear the normal sounds plus the 'clicks' of the spikes. On the other hand, digital has to sample the waveform at a regularity that allows reasonable representation of the original (analogue) waveform. Each sample being a digital numerical representation of the waveform amplitude at the moment of sampling. Between those moments there is no way of representing what the waveform does. Thence the saying that digital is nearly always wrong as it is only correct at the sample points. But then there are restrictions p;laced on what is transmitted to 'squeeze' more services into the available bandwidth, hence the lower bit rates and poorer quality of reproduction.

That's some of the reasons why some who like quality listening are reverting back to analogue methods of recording and playback, e.g. vinyl records, etc.



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MikeP's 3,056 posts GB flag
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