Read this: How to cover Trump now, Taskmaster creator Alex Horne and who will replace Gary Lineker?

You are about to listen to a BBC podcast and I'd like to tell you a bit about what goes into making I'm Sardar susesi and assistant commissioner of podcast for BBC sounds.

I pull a leavers to support a diverse range of podcast on all sorts of subjects relationships identity comedy even one that makes poetry music and Inner City Life so one day.

I'll be posted develop their ideas the next back checking a feature and the next looking at how a podcast connect with it's audience and maybe that's you so if you like this podcast from others on BBC sounds BBC sounds music Radio podcasts, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 in this program will assess the choices facing BBC Sport after it was announced that Gary Lineker will be leaving Match of the Day but it's always going to be with us is the creator and co-presenter of TaskMaster with?

Is rapidly approaching the finale of its eighteenth series not to mention that the format is now being made around the world that we're going to start in the United States and rose people might have lost week or the week before that is because you are just that when you were here the week before I apologise but you are just back anyway from covering the election and we wanted to get into some of the many questions for the media the Trump's victory razors very good.

Thank you very much for for holding the four and of course trump victory is hugely consequential in in lots of different ways and it's certainly the case for the media that there are often issues that it's now grappling with because of trumps victory.

Ok, will lay them out for alright.

So what you think well I have quite a long list to be honest but in the Spirit of people think relatively here is 3 thoughts which I'm going to talk with you and I guess about first of all we got the diversification of Media sources.

Not I hasten to add necessarily a bad thing but it's very clear that Legacy news organisations in America like.

Using newspapers unless Central to how Americans learning about the world around them so these news organisations and now in a struggle for relevance to some parts of American society that one s you got journalism's roll, amongst its ambitions.

I guess journalism is seeking to establish, what's true? And it has spent a lot of energy highlighting the many things that Donald Trump says the one true, but there's a question mark now since the election result what does John Lewis do if their efforts to establish? What's true on trusted or answered interest or if truth itself isn't a priority for people.

How is journalism supposed to reactor that that's the second one and the third is and I'm sure you'll always be listening.

I've been thinking about this mask and front with covered Elon Musk purchase of Twitter a lot on the show and it's been easy to see that as a text the business story but now it's an extraordinary political story a lesson help our that derive some technology can directly connect to.

Physical power in fact just a day mask is flying with trump to Washington he's got a new role looking at government efficiency he is right in The Thick of things so there's a three issues as you can you tell I could go on but that's probably enough for us to be starting me yeah and lots for us to think about over the course of the next 20 minutes or so particular start with exploring where the us know what happened leave journalism and I'd like to introduce Edward Lucy's the US-based associate editor for the Financial Times welcome to the media show Edward I mean of course I will be people out there who say in the end of this is less about the media is actually about the fact that there were two issues at the economy and immigration that people care about in the US and the Republicans under Donald Trump had a better answer in their mind but the media show and we want to talk about the media.

So when it came to Donald Trump has as Roslin out Donald Trump and the Legacy media and the opposition between those two.

Sides if you like do you see it as voters having picked aside the trump side over the side of newspapers cable news whether it might be who are telling it was telling a different story and that's what that's definitely one opposition.

That's very true women trump against the Legacy media and mask in particular positing ex is that form has been a replacement for the Legacy Media is being the place where he says there's free speech for quite a while since long before motorsport Twitter 2017 or 2016.

I think virtually every single newspaper in the United States indoors, Hillary Clinton and trump won anyway, so we've been aware of the influence of the mainstream Media for a very long time and the declining numbers.

I should so stressed though that the many newspapers including my own that have.

There are saying rising circulation and if I'm the past is Prologue then trump being elected is going to be good for subscriptions.

He was good for businesses that require a lot of outfits without saying then MSNBC who may have opposed him on Aberdeen he brought the eyeballs bought the advertisers for the for the Legacy Media it was there was a notorious comment by trump spokesman in 2017 that we have alternative facts, but there was a big demand for non alternative facts for sale in traditional facts, so I'm not sure that this is there isn't a silver lining in a race cynical way for the Legacy media and what about you talk about facts when you describe things accurately as of course you do on the Financial Times do you get accused of being biased?

Comes to your descriptions of for example of Donald Trump saying on my own mental health.

I stop looking at the comments and Penny the pieces you know there's a lot of age in those comments and there's a lot of allegations of bias, but I'm a colonist it sounds of our reporters.

We have a very rigorous fact Chequer machine and Weber correct when there is an error and exciting.

It's fair to say although it has this thing community notes accidents become an extraordinary sort of steroids purveyor of disinformation since mask took over and yet if we think about you.

Are you are in a very different area from x Financial Times people on trump site might be calling you the mainstream media and that's not they're not using that term in a positive way, but do you think it's time for some soul searching for?

Do you think that no matter how the media cover this election or whatever it had done people in America or voting with their feet and saying we're not interested with you anymore.

I don't want you anymore.

I think it's time for some soul-searching and business model re-evaluation amongst most of the Legacy Media particularly those of the TV networks which are falling are in 3-ft but except for Fox News but you know the technology has so fragmin the environment that is going to be very difficult to come up with an easy answer people are used to disintermediation as it's called meaning there is nothing between them and expressing their opinions and their opinion is as good as any experts and fact-checking is for the birds.

I mean it is a this is a really really serious challenge that is not easy to overcome.

Is there isn't it because people listen to this might say we think the media is out of touch and it's proved to be outside by the fact that you're not even looking at the comments when people reply articles, what what do you say to that? Well? I think you're mine in particular.

I mean and and colleagues also write about politics tend to set up a track the most splenetic homonym kind of commenters and there are tiny minority of subscribers, but that probably doesn't apply to most of our other coverage.

It's just that politics is really I didn't end to sift out the worst.

You know that old gresham's law is the bad drives out the good and so other kinds of commenters also most subscribers the same I don't want to comment because it becomes it becomes quite toxic quite quickly Alexis also get into what Donald Trump's election my mean for the media that need a legacy.

Are you worried about your ability to do your job America's elected somebody who's heading for example to send reporters to jail and strip major television networks of their broadcast licences it being just we don't know but he said it.

Yeah.

I think I know of people plenty of people who are legitimately worried about their ability to do that.

I don't think trump can just throw people in jail but he can use the IRS to do tax audits you can have some the phone investigations from the FBI and the Department of Justice he can use the federal Communications Commission to threaten companies that own Media outlets their TV licences.

They're all sorts of ways that he can chill chill descent on the other hand trump 1.0 was the luckiest White House in history.

It was an absolute butter bonanza and vagina and if you look at the structure so far is it?

Nationwide appointments just take the Department of government efficiency that mask and ramaswamy you're going to head.

That's two heads cooking not necessarily going to breathe I suspect there's going to be a lot of new generation coming out of this trump administration.

So you know that you're next week and look at some different ways that journalists are approaching that the political and media situation that they're facing let's begin with Katie Drummond who's global editorial director at the Tech magazine.

Ykc.

You're very welcome here on the media show now, I'm should tell people listening who some of whom will know but some may not that you introduce wires politics section at a time when lots about it's when moving away from politics.

I wondered why I wonder why you decided to move towards it.

Thank you for having me it's great to be here.

We launched our politics vertical.

A little over a year ago and our rationale my rational at that time was actually very simple.

It was not wired is a publication committed to the Future right.

We cover where it is going of course we cover technology in a in a very consistent way, it is my very firm belief that you simply cannot understand all text from politics anymore ride and looking ahead at the US election but also at the time when we did this at you know what historic number of elections taking place around the world in 2024 whether it was the spread of missing and disinformation online whether it was generative AI and the potential for AI to be used in some sort of capacity around you know or whether it was as we have seen you know some of the most powerful industry m and s h u r must be in the perfect example.

You know really aligning themselves politically.

Like X as a megaphone essentially for the gop it was very clear to us that that we simply could not continue to do our jobs with any credibility without interest you know the notion that politics was part of the conversation forward in case you should say that for people who don't know the acronym gop it's shorthand for the Republicans I just wondered with reference to Moscow Twitter Alexis it's become whether you feel the media missed the story that it was so focused on whether must could make good on that huge investment he made whether it was a decent business decision that we missed the political dimension and I think it respects you might be right there right.

There's been a lot of focus on uno-x is P&L its user base its financial performance obviously which are in in great and very steep decline also a lot of focus on sort of x and missing this information and sort of how conspiracy.

Inaccurate information that platform what I don't think enough people socks coming was the idea that may be ultimately he didn't buy the to run a sound business here and she bought this thing because he could use it essentially as you know a megaphone for Donald Trump and to you know swear the outcome of the US election and everything that would come after that so they got a great night and for better or for worse it it was clearly effective and Donald Trump we can assume season as such because Mum has been right in the process that follow the election result in terms of how this government is taking shape.

I think you could say that mask is now one of the most powerful unelected individuals in the world.

Do you think you take a position on that a wide when you're covering the story do you take a position on WhatsApp ropery it for how technology works in America and also how democracy works?

We do and that something that we are very transparent with our audience about it.

We have been particularly you know in recent months in recent weeks.

Really taking this moment opportunity to really articulate for audience what we are wired believe in what values we hold dear and what dangers we see a head in the future and fundamentally yes, we believe in democracy.

We are we believe in.

What do the initials in the United States of federal level holding office before years and then another election being held and it's absolutely I would say to that question and so what about it readers of yours would say what how can I trust your coverage if you want making clear from the outset that you are in opposition to Donald Trump because you don't see him as matching the to use your friends values that you have I think that.

You know audiences and readers have trust issues with the media no matter what if you articulate your worldview and your values or if you pretend that you don't have a worldview and you don't tell you if you sort of create an illusion of a blanket impartiality across all of your coverage trust in media is a fundamental issue.

What we have decided to do with wired is approach that with transparency.

We publish FatFace reporting we have a rigorous factory can process every story we publish on our website and in our magazine backtracked.

You know we don't we don't pull any punches.

They are inaccurate aching shortcuts in our in our journalism, but I believe that in this new moment in time for journalism in for Media being able to be as transparent with your audience as possible about what's in performing.

Your journalism is important and isn't.

Edward rather sorry, but as such you are clearly a certain your commitment to facts and evidence but it sounds like you're not convinced the impartiality as a concept is helpful in this moment for America yes, I think for a magazine required.

I think that's correct.

I don't I don't think that you can look at you on mask and look at his wealth and look at his and the power that he holds not over not only over the United States and within the trump administration on planet Earth and just say like interesting ok well.

No of course.

We have a view one Way Or Another around certain dimensions of what he does.

He runs some of the most innovative incredible most of technologically Progressive companies on the planet in Tesla and SpaceX for sure he also runs a social media network that has become a successful of missing this information and a megaphone as I said earlier.

For the Republican party in for a president electron and kiss you have to be for a hold both of those things at the same time and articulate to your audience.

Is there I'm listening to you.

I'm thinking I'd like to ask you a question, but you might I think reject the premise of it which is are you doing journalism or are you campaigning against something as well or do you see any distinction? I would just need the premise your ID and what I would say to that is that there is not a single story that goes up on wired with that runs on a magazine.

That is not recorded.

How do you see? This is a business opportunity because you've been clearing your communication with your readers that how your planning to approach covering Trump's second term I wonder if I see that is an opportunity for people to think what I want to get behind this journalism because I suppose Donald Trump our values as a publication in this moment or

Ghastly more important to me than our business what I would say to that is that journalism should always be a good business like fundamentally at the end of the day journalism needs to be sustainable and that's something that I believe in that I wake up to do every single day.

You know I think there is more readers our moved in this moment to subscribe to whether it's wired with the Financial Times or you know to pay for cable news because they want access to more of this information.

That is of course very much welcome, but you know we do things that all the time that might be alright.

They are in opposition to a sound business strategy and because we want our audience to have access to the information that we believe they need earlier this week.

We publish a very comprehensive guide to digital security and how to essentially safeguard yourself from you know surveillance which Donald Trump has.

Thomas to ramp up in this country and we put that outside of a while we made that available to anyone anywhere around the world who want access to that information simply because we think it is a very valuable public service and I think I've got a couple more questions.

I know that Elon Musk in response to an editorial you publish said why it is a dead publication.

I wonder what your thoughts were when you saw him engage in those terms 24-hour mask is the subject of a wiring if the subject of our reporting takes issue with a fact a piece of information in our journalism.

That's something.

I take very seriously always and beyond that I Tend not to spend much time thinking about the feedback from subjects of my journalism on the 2nd as one of the only people in the world with access to Wires audience data subscription numbers and P&L I can say that wired is more alive.

Then it has ever been to for well.

He's definitely taking notice because that comment was in the last couple of days my final questions you might have seen that the Guardian has announced today the Guardian in the UK that it's not going to be content on ex anymore.

What's your position on that? I just read that this morning.

I mean I thought that was a great example of making a decision as a publication clearly and transparently articulating to your audience while you were doing that and then moving head and doing it.

So what about word we haven't made a decision one Way Or Another think you know one of the things you think are you thinking about it? Though? Is it alive discussion many people as possible to see our journalism whatever platform they find it on whether it's tiktok or X or blue sky or thread or Facebook or Instagram wherever that audiences with.

To see wired I think you do as the Guardian 20 need to wear that against you know the risks and the downsides of any given platform will watch out for your decision.

Did you take one on that Katie Drummond thank you very much for the moment Katie is global editorial director at the Tech magazine wide and I want to keep looking at how journalism and different outlets in journalism, which the situation and our next guest is Megan McArdle is a columnist at the Washington Post and serves on its editorial board welcome Megan I'm very interested in what Katie was just saying that she said illusions of impartiality across coverage leads to a decline in trust use essentially saying impartiality isn't helpful right now.

How do you receive that and is your approach very different from wired? I am a right-leaning honest.

I have worked in mainstream journals my whole life.

I didn't start as a reporter I started.

Call Neston so I have always had a point of view and I have always known what my own if you was but I think the thing that I think a lot about in that position is that because most of it with me.

I have to buy credibility with those readers.

I have to show my work.

I have to allow their best points and I have to be very clear not about where I'm coming but why and how I am trying to be fair to what they think and I think that is something where a lot of mainstream publications that have gone in the direction of being more upfront with Adam I don't think it's really bad thing I certainly think a lot of readers who like that right.

This is it has been good for subscriptions to readers who feel like they're lying with you and I think the trailer for that is that you lose influence with people who disagree with you and less.

You're very very careful to make them.

Ok, we disagree, but I'm trying to be fair to you.

So give me a give me a hearing before you just close it and tell me that I'm a fascist but what is that mean in terms of how you and how you doing the washing is the Witcher on the editorial board? What does it mean in terms of how you're approaching the situation right now.

It's action and that is a little bit different from being on the news side one thing that I know my boss thinks about a lot and I think about a lot and her that it's horrible things about a lot is having viewpoint diversity is trying to make sure that we're getting the best arguments of the other side of an issue inside the room as well as hearing it for outside from critics and because I don't know who's a social psychologist talks about you think that we all do which is that when we find a fact that confirms our belief.

We think can I believe there is another what is it met the minimum standard for possibility evidence the disc.

Important Morley important beliefs must I believe in other words is evidence so overwhelming that are kind of cat avoid admitting that this is true or quite likely to be true and that different standard to be clear we don't know we're doing this everyone does this all the time and because of that it is extremely difficult to actually do a fair job of presenting of viewpoints unless you have people in the room who are doing that is very very hard to mock someone else's believes because you don't know what questions am I not asking which experts am I giving a new difference because they seem quite nice people who basically with me on start that's the stuff that is actually very very difficult for anyone to do and I think you certainly this look like Fox News unless you are unless that person is on staff in the room feels comfortable raising those issues feels comfortable to send.

That's a really tough culture I like to think that we've done a pretty good job of that in the event that we really do strive to represent all kinds of different points of View and to get those conversations inside of the Roman as well as responding people outside and I got some numbers today about the garden there in a single day the Wednesday after the election guardian readers pleasure more than 1.8 million pounds to the garden that was asking for donations essentially to fight trump and I didn't put it in those terms but to stand for values based journalism with fact I wonder what you make of the idea of resistance to trump from the media for the media being a business opportunity or business model and always pleased to see in in a tough time for registry.

I'm always pleased to see journalists getting more money.

Download good look I think there is a trade-off and the trade-off is influenced and I think you have seen this within the mainstream Media where 10 years ago 15 years ago Republicans want to sit down for interviews with Vanity Fair than your plans magazine never even though they knew that does where is in agree with them and they were not going to get on average as nice a profile as a young democratic not care and Influence People Who work for them.

The only people people already agree with us.

Do you think you can do that part of the media that influence those people to make a difference or is it over is it game over I think it is a trade-off between do you want to be more influential with the group of people who is already voting for the second.

She was the nominee evil it against trump in 2020 to 2016 if you want more influence with that audience lean into their values front.

You sure that you will be more influential and the problem with that is that you will be less influential with people who do not already shared values the more that you what you believe and this is how I believe this is why I think everyone else is wrong anyone who's on the fence or who disagrees is just going to write you off as well.

They already think I'm wrong.

They're not listening to me and so I'm just I don't care anymore and I think that is the process you've seen on the right.

I would like to I would make homes on the subject of another one now.

I would like to see a do a better job of getting diverse viewpoints with the news rounds and it's really challenging.

You're not a lot of writing journals out there, but I would like to work harder at bringing those those voices inside the 10th because I think that in terms of influencing policy of influencing society.

We have a better shot if we are not just talking.

To the choir if we are preaching to everyone in the pews as a shopping to end on Megan McArdle Collins from Washington Post something we should go back to you at some point during the media show thank you.

Just bring back David Luiz from the ft and Edward actually want to read a quote from the Washington Post it's executive editor who said recently the media that was in response to the election result needs to do more to capture using experiences of a broader array of Americans and taking them seriously now when you hear that I would imagine you think one of course.

I would agree with that.

What do you do if you are encountering one wherever they are on the political spectrum wear a lot of their views of the world aren't rooted in fact they've been given information online which is not accurate a laudable goal in the abstract and I think we should all share it, but I'm extremely difficult to know how you put that one in to practice.

I mean.

I think one of the criticisms.

The mainstream stroke liberal media and how it cover the 20-24 campaign is that it didn't pay enough attention to those Americans many many many Americans who was saying that they were hurting economically there was generally 8 phone not just from the opinion writers that actually you've never had it so good and you're doing fine and look at the macro numbers and practice inflation Israel a lot of the support the age that people were given that Americans are given by Washington the pandemic was withdrawn in 2021 20-22.

Just as inflation was taking off and there is a real objective reasons why people are feeling feeling pinched.

Can I make lean and not sympathised with or heard by the mainstream Media so that might be one example of do more on-the-ground reporting.

We in the media tend to be in the elite.

We don't tend to feel the pinch John isn't that well paid but we don't tend to feel what the median household feel and to dismiss it there is a sort of let them eat cake quality to some of the coverage that that that I think we seen the last few months that might be one air wedge Amazon could improve attacked and 150 question about technology.

It has and people would say I'm sure lots of beneficial ways completely diversified not only who can make content but the type of content we can all create and where we can share all of that content there's an array of options for for everyone.

Do you think that one of the lessons here for the media? Is that it needs to do a far better job of not just putting it's journalism and it's workwear it would normally put it but actually to get it much Farr and Farr and Y on different.

Different forms to a degree that perhaps it's struggle to up to this point and so people have gone elsewhere to learn about the world yes, although if you cast your mind back a few years to this debate when trump was first elected.

What was happening.

Then is that media were putting their content on Facebook and Facebook was gobbling up most of the revenues Facebook quiz with actually the monster that was devouring the industry and so sure get your stuff out on YouTube get your stuff out on blue sky what I'm all the new platforms are on tiktok if that isn't band but I think it goes deeper than just a distribution problem on that final thought will say thank you very much from the ft Katy Drummond from wired and Megan McArdle from the Washington Post ok to wear again hearing.

There.

Are we some new issues raised by the US election result but also.

Seems that we discussed on the media so many times over the years from business models to the form that media content should take absolutely and I was interested in what case he was saying talking about values based journalism and space journalism.

I'm interested in that intersection really and kind of that's going to be for the future will see clearly people think there's money to be made from this business opportunity Media organisations like the Guardian think there is money to be made from a business models out there that can work for news organisations.

They are precious however.

I suppose one of The Aspiration for journalism is take to reach as many people as possible and some of those business models ok to the sun sections of the American Society but may not help that journalism reach beyond it.

We will no doubt be talking about this many more times on the media show but the moment we're gonna turn away from the US election writing and talk about Gary Lineker now.

I'm sure most of you listening all have seen this in the news.

Leaving Match of the Day at the end of the season for what's behind that how much anyone presenter however brilliant matters to a format and what BBC Sport is going to do with its most precious programs there is killing lots to discuss with the broadcaster and columnist at the radio Times Caroline Frost welcome Caroline hello.

What do you first of all? What do you make of the Affair Lineker's departure the backstory behind it? What really went on well? It's fascinating I think because it plays do so many discussions beyond him so it talks about raising the question of how BBC figures conduct themselves on social media it raises the question of whether Sports it's in the hierarchy of BBC news and beyond and the rest of the BBC and of course it raises the question of money when he is somewhat.

Highly paid in comparison with many many of his colleagues so his departure I guess it's the the worst Kept Secret in broadcasting.

Become increasingly uncomfortable his position at the the helm of one of the BBC's flagship shows I mean uncomfortable for him probably the BBC but it's been dancing on the head of a pin trying to balance its unique superpower of impartiality and I've just been listening with great interest to your discussion and clearly navigating in that market of news broadcasting and of broadcasting Germany and I think the BBC the one thing that everybody is still at pains to stress from your director-general downwards is the impartiality that it's different is a little bit down to use it Sports in terms of what's going on this week that sources told me Gary Lineker been opened the staying on longer a match of the day, but the BBC didn't offer him a new Match of the Day contract and instead they bombed in this deal this contract extension will present the World Cup in 2026 and we go out.

Hi, but how much you need mention social media staff how much do you think these two things his departure and what happened people will remember he was suspended by BBC bosses after tweeting and then his fellow presenter the Match of the Day sided with him walked off Set someone said to me and inside a said to me the BBC has a very long memory doesn't forget these things.

Do you think these things are connected? I think it's one of the bricks in the wall and very important breakfast sure I mean that day was really quite monumental that has a huge impact on Gary Lineker one man orbit stopped English sport in its tracks as all of those commentators some fixtures had to be cancelled because there was no coverage available and I had to review Match of the Day and it was really quite extraordinary thing to behold although the interestingly the viewership went out but I'm not suggesting that it goes on without a presenter in the future, so we have yes, we have the tweets we have the social media presence.

Clearly evolving as a person and wanting to flex political muscles and talk about issues where he sees fit with the podcast am far away is able to do that on here for the rest of football.

We have the podcast we have the great Empire it's not just one podcast it's the whole goldhanger stable which he is only one part and that is becoming increasingly larger as a player that we have the swear.

He wears his his clothing range in from a high street brands and then of course finally we have the salary so so each of these things please into to one another I think it's worth obviously both sides says that they reach mutual agreement and they both very happy where then turn the way Gary Lineker's now leaving the BBC but when we look at Match of the Day how what are the risks? I suppose I'm losing such a well-known high-profile.

Presenter is been there 25 years.

Can I show survive without him? Is it bigger than one man? I would hope so I would take you back.

To when he started he replace those line up now.

I don't believe there is anybody more able as a sports presenter in the history of the world than des Lynam and yet she went and I thought I will never be the same again and then stepped up and 25 years later here.

We are and there's a whole generation of viewers who Match of the Day has never had another face and yes, it's a different age, but I do think that even in this era of dedicated TV channels, which are all part of sporting clubs.

We have live sports on platforms.

We have all sorts of the opportunities.

We do know that 2 million people still sit down on a Saturday night with their cocoa and tune in to highlight collectively shared programme when they do that.

What are they after because you said the new things have evolved so much haven't they we now I'll be watching for the gold which they possibly be able to see much earlier on social media or wherever are they looking for kind of hot take.

People that that's where they Serena seem to evolve that he look at the other offerings and all the channels on other formats.

It's much less about a straightforward process more about people offering an opinion.

Yes and as we saw in March 23 when Bournemouth played Liverpool and nobody quite new if that was a great goal or a really bad bit of goalkeeping you do need your chuntering pundits in the studio for the atmosphere it felt funeral it felt lonely watching Match of the Day without the people in the studio to conform to all I think it's important.

I think that we do have a diminishing number of collectively shared and enjoyed TV experiences and somehow Match of the Day has maintained its cornerstone edition in providing one of those increasingly rare opportunities and clearly been following this story as closely as I have will know that the BBC has a new director of Sport some of the people have been speaking to.

Been saying this is classic what happens a new person comes in they want to make their Mark and partly making their mark is saying we don't need this overpaid as they perceived potential perceived presenter.

He's causing us problems.

We don't need you anymore and sometimes that is a real risk and can come to bite you and sometimes it doesn't and I just wondered what you think about where we are with that in all sorts of space.

So I'm similarly when Ben flower turn up in Channel 5 the next thing when you Celebrity Big Brother has gone when I would point perhaps 2 miles bossy and cats and Newsnight after that Jeremy Paxman decided to leave.

I'm not saying it's not without pressing but sometimes these things it works and it doesn't so we have the example of Top Gear when we had a dramatic and high-profile big-budget hire to replace Jeremy Clarkson I mean Ronaldo did have to leave Manchester United eventually so we have all sorts of examples of where it has happened it doesn't I think

Is high that much we know Gary Lineker has proved I mean even the great des Lynam says he was doing a first class job in brewing to that role.

He brought that sporting pedigree, but he keeps on that initially and then developed to start which has I think enabled him to go out into the wider mediaworld and to really as we scene cleanup in this new Horizon of podcast and the sun's reporting to die that this new director of Sport can't confirm this or visit the sun is a what's a female host in the mix.

What have you have you heard anything about that and also where the match of the day actually is one of the program for key programmers Crown Jewels if you like that delivers Mail eyes into the BBC at a time that is potentially underserved audience about the BBC dancing on the head of a pin.

This is another high wire act because the sure that audience is underserved me know that Match of the Day along with the likes of clocks and very few others.

Reach those parts are there TV shows don't this is when the gentleman of the house Mrs old school Sword of troops of description, but I think it's still applies when they reach for the remote control and take only has 80 minutes of the week.

So yes, so you mess with that audience at your peril.

However, you need to go with the times.

I don't think that means a man has the present it has to be the best person for the job.

I would hate to see somebody been given that job purely to take a woman's box.

I mean I don't I'm a woman that doesn't do me any favours to know that somebody's is just sort of subscribing to those of the where in no way saying that that is what's happening here.

Greg Dyke told the male in the end people watch Match of the Day for the football.

Is he right I do you know what I think he's kind of right but we did we had the experiment we had the opportunity to conduct the Pepsi test and we've seen what happens when there's only goals and it's

The difference between newsfeed and a newspaper and there's a reason people buy newspapers we get off feeds, but we get feeds elsewhere.

We've got all the other platforms that I thought about I think Match of the Day provide something unique in this day and age and I think I rather than pegging it to one particular host.

I think just don't mess with the format that people are calling me about when it is one of the Crown Jewels don't mess with it and yet.

Is there a sense that the visa messing to be done there's probably messing because people as you say new people coming and they need to justify they're not quite as good as salaries, but perfectly adequate to move paper clips around the desk but I am perhaps Have I got news for you would provide the model where they had a high-profile host who went very quickly in a broccoli and since then they've never really had to to find somebody to replace.

They just created a quite different show and it's survived but I think that's certainly I don't want that.

Score an own goal count.

I want them to at take their time with this one.

Do you think there's an opportunity that is it not virginity for a bit of a relaunch as long as long as you keep the best of the old which is a huge amount.

I mean every single fan and there's there's an urban myths about match of the day that your own club is underserved that you're always too far too low down the pecking order so as with so many things in the BBC clearly by so many people they doing something right.

There are lots of things is a reason it's still gets 2 million 60 years after it's inception.

Let's not mess too much stay with us Caroline Caroline Frost from the radio.

Thank you know next to the media.

Show we're turning to a man behind one of the big success stories on British TV I'm sure lots of you watch it TaskMaster on Channel 4 Alex Horne is it's great and co-host hi Alex great.

I'll be on the programme.

Thank you good afternoon.

Hello everyone hi and now this is your program is Channel 4 third most stream title of the year.

It's currently in.

Eighteenth series a broadcast in over 120 countries there's also local versions in countries such as Australia Canada New Zealand you got a book coming out the latest series is Richard it's for now and you got junior TaskMaster which launched last week.

It's all going on.

Yeah, you don't worry about oversaturation you but then what you just said about match of the day 60 years.

That's quite encouraging everything I'm surprised.

It was still going after one seriously thought that be it.

So we're grateful for anything that comes our way and haven't had the pleasure.

Just give them a very quick introduction to the format and how it works.

Yes, it's a comedy entertainment show where five comedians are on the series for 10 weeks compete to impress a giant who is Greg Davies it was also comedian by doing tasks idiosyncratic tasks set by me and I do live in isolation.

So they don't know how much I was done.

There's no script.

What's coming to do the best? So you see very clever people being undone and very silly people doing well in of traffic task just give us a couple of examples so we can get a feel for that one of my favourite.

They walk into Chesham Town Hall which is the town where I live and the mayor of Chesham was sat there with an envelope jaywalking impressed this may you have 20 minutes your time Starts Now 20-minutes local near and Tuesday we're to do that so Joe will one that one by running out of the room to Sainsbury's in buying 42 kg make strong lagers and coming unstuck before we carry on talking.

Let's just play a little clip from TaskMaster review and action alongside the actual TaskMaster master Greg Davies

Entertainment Alex will represent the division of North and South Korea in in a disco break dance style was a terrible situation right back to the start.

How did you come up with this idea? How did it happen? Well? It was not meant to be TV show I'm not a TV producer and comedian.

That's part of the success of it was turned down by everyone in telly my wife had a baby 15 years ago and I wasn't allowed to go to the Edinburgh festival quite rightly so I said at home and really watching my friends have.

And I woke up with an idea where I would sit these comedians a challenge once a month for a year and follow me I went to Edinburgh to the show with the morning station and told the audience of 150 people how it went and clearly this thing where comedians are competitive and funny without a script so I did it again the following year and then a TV company came in and said you should piss that as an idea for years everyone said no Dave subsided the channel Dave on UK TV and we did 9 series with them and then Channel 4 pick it up and we will jump ship was quite torturous process because I love the people of Dave but terrestrial TV was too big for me.

So yeah, we moved to Channel 4 we've been there ever since.

I'm sure there people listening who have ideas of their own which they've tried to get off the ground during their 4 years.

Did you ever start thinking maybe is only me who think this is a good idea.

Maybe it isn't a good idea or will you certain all the way through that if you were?

Given the chance By Day by Channel 4 by whoever it might be it was going to be good, but I have no certainty and I still don't and I've pitch many things sensor does not open doors ideas Fall by the wayside and I eat.

You know when we were watching it.

I was still at job in comedian.

So you never seen your head something like that you just so much luck in thinking that having it cos commissioners tend to commission things that look like things that already successful fair enough you not to top job.

I think being commissioner but to take a risk of something we had a few things and so we had no script.

We have the same five comedians for 10 weeks and people when doing that so someone have to take a risk us and yeah, I'm very grateful to them but also I really don't accept my ideas because who knows what's going to work and well someone in the end did after 4 years Dave said yes and when you sat down.

I want to have all you come up with these.

Do you have to sit down at your desk and go right? It's time to create some tasks or do you just sit on the bus or sit by the the way in the car whatever it might be and just news on it when you've got a moment my 15 years before and it's the same as running jokes.

You don't really see what I don't Sit Down I don't delivery do you wait for inspiration to strike with sounds a bit highfalutin but if I have a deadline I can go for a walk my dog and come up with 10 but it's just my job weirdly to come up with this nonsense scenarios night.

I really enjoyed doing it.

So yeah be long long bath and a waterproof notepad.

Press me.

Please them before handle guinea pigs, or is it just I don't mean actually official.

Do you test them first or do you just go for it? I have three terms of practicalities of propped working and time working but we've learned.

There's no point too much because comedian coming with their five different brains and do something entirely unexpected.

So no it's more a case of sensing having faith in ourselves that the thing will work and if it doesn't matter we we can we can sit and do it the next series I never been any that sounds great on paper and then really don't work in reality yes popping bubble wrap for there's no way of doing it other than squeezing bubble individually with tried and 40 years and it's never ever entertaining and probably watch it when people will know that some of the tasks involve you actually being a victim any of those that you really like to forget you know what is interesting.

Our program we have two white men healthy men now telling other people what to do and I'm quite and comfortable without you know it's not ideal that regular are both my guys.

I'm lucky and Junior TaskMaster we finally addressed to have a woman in charge.

So I like to the fact that I am a victim often and I think Greg is also undercut consistently and hopefully I need to know it's quite knowing that we're not really in charge.

I like being a victim there's something my personal.

I quite like being the underdog and being the psychic and I honestly my personalities improve having sex naked on a cake.

I was instructed by Lisa Tarbuck to sit on a cake sponge cream and want to do that live on TV or not like everyone wants the nation see that you lose a lot and I was quite shy before and I think I'm better now at complaining in restaurants and that sort of thing so I advise anyone to to do what they're told and lose a bit of Dignity occasionally.

Stop Caroline here in the studio from the radio times.

Can I just wondered from your side? What what do you think is behind taskmasters long-term success well with hindsight.

You could call it the lovechild of the Adventure Game and Whose Line Is It Anyway with a bit of Challenge Anneka thrown in but I would say he's not doing that but Alex and have dedicated themselves to promoting new faces along with the established face is so there really is somebody for everybody which is great to see but I think it creates a lovely rich mix of people.

I think it was inspired a decision to put all of those people together for a whole series like strictly now, so you sort of you follow, then we might not tune in for the initially but you get to know them but also we've we've had so many panelshow games that are successful, but they go outside.

There's some fresh air there's some seen those Adventures there's some sort of.

Is mythical and away but I mean the tasks really are so I don't want to say ridiculous there fun that mean the one that made me laugh the most.

I think I don't know if Alex remembers, but when they are you talking about them and when somebody said right.

I need to do something octane and he's idea obtain was to steal great.

There's his trousers lots of that they go outside you think that is actually part of the reason why it succeeds because actually quite a lot of comedy panel shows the week cancelled just in the room.

I mean yes, I will be there forever but it's nice to do to see a show where your sword of running around.

I mean I think I even heard Alex did you you told you what I think a little bit of an inspiration and transgenic knockout Crystal Maze and they all about people running around your right and I think it's Grown Ups being children and getting out for that desk was so important to us.

Contestants never have a deck in an inner studio, they just downstairs and that was really bored.

I think you're right there Caroline all those things you said I correct you tell us about the the expansion outside of the UK because now the the additions that you make a not the only auditions being me.

How did that happen and how involved are you in over in the different iterations whether it's TaskMaster in Sweden or Portugal on New Zealand or whatever it might be involved.

So we just trying to do things well.

That's our Ethos Belgium Festival came in and did a version of it and I went over watch it being filmed in Flemish don't understand the work but I could see that it was we're going to work people thought it was great British throw, but actually it's just people doing things and completely understand.

I still found it funny because I knew roughly what's going on.

So now I tend to just get on with it.

I don't know Portuguese audiences.

So if they say we want to do a 2 hours.

Which is what they do I said that that's fine.

However would in America and didn't quite work there because it was a 22-minute show and adverts every 4 minutes.

So I think if we did it there again.

We would try not to compromise is a lot more space exactly.

Yeah, it was very rushed and it was it was interesting to learn the experience but now we try to Kuwait From a Distance we really care about it, but we also try to just employ good people.

I think that seems quite important.

I must ask you about another another dimension of this with a very grand title the TaskMaster supermacs plus which is description base streaming platform around TaskMaster is that a popular with people subscribe specifically to a TaskMaster service I mean so this is out of my remit but yes they really do I think that we try to be at the forefront of new ideas and people sign up for her all sorts of things and I mean if you go there you can see a.m.

Without adverts we also put everything up on YouTube for free so you can pay or not pay but yeah it really they do when we got this live experience where they go and do the task which is so yes as well.

What we haven't talked about is just the sheer joy of the banana skin humour when so much human is clever and ironic Neots eyebrow and TaskMaster is a bit of a throwback to a slightly more healthy and time when people did just fall over it if there's a caper if elements these days from these kind of shows that we're becoming a bit kinda a bit less political perhaps.

I don't know what you think about everything they looking for escapism.

We really had a purple patch during a lot during lockdown which you know you don't want to profit from that anyway people did turn to us as family as a safe place where we not going to talk politics and you know you're disgusting earlier about trump and mask I was pretty happy that we're not part of that chat and

Razor heads against above the parapet we trying to do the right thing but we also don't talk politics and I think of you appreciate that but we appreciate you coming over midi.

So thank you the best of luck with the end of this series all of the different things that you've got coming on.

That's Alex Horne his new book is an absolute casserole the TaskMaster compendium it out now.

They're also tickets available now the TaskMaster live experience safe to say if your TaskMaster fan, there are products out there for you Caroline thanks to you as well for coming in preciate it yeah, that is it for this week.

I'm still thinking about going home and having a little but I believe you Alex I believe it's not possible surely.

It is I will see how you can listen back to this edition and all editions of the media show on BBC sounds, but that is our time up.

Thanks to all of our thanks to you for listening will be like next week.

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