Read this: George Osborne on covering the budget, Real Housewives' Andy Cohen, media strategies of the far right

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 today and undercover documentary about the far-right a documentary the London film festival decided was too dangerous to show I've been speaking to you Leanne around the at the Widow of the Russian opposition leader Alexei navalny.

He died in a Siberian prison in February we're going to look at how he use the media to promote his message and whether that's still possible in Russia right now and American reality TV supreme Andy Cohen will be joining us.

He's behind the Real Housewives franchise but with the budget coming up we're going to start by talking about the ways the media by Dan you cover the biggest event in the UK government's financial calendar for financial journalist budget day.

Is there FA Cup final Claire Barratt from DFT as with me in?

In front of me is the former Chancellor now podcast George Osborne welcome to you both and George before we get there on the budget you represented a Cheshire constituency got to ask you.

Are you a fan of the Real Housewives of Cheshire I'm not only represented a Cheshire constituency also represented Alderley Edge and Wilmslow epicentre of the Real Housewives of Cheshire I thought it was actually have seen in various incarnations of it and it's surprisingly addictive and in Cavan know that later the former Chancellor likes his show come on because we've got you here because we're going to talk about the budget.

We're going to talk about your podcast political currency in a moment, but first Chancellors perspective.

What is the strategy when it comes to the media ahead of budget day fundamentally a good budget economics.

Political decision-making and then the media strategies sits on top of that I think a budget that is driven by Media strategy is probably the wrong way round and is going to unravel considering the inner budget around 4000 individual decisions any one of which could go wrong and caused a headache for the child and then the final thing that says it is the sort of Central event domestic event for the government in the UK even those that are not the prime minister and in this case there's also got to spending review so every government department.

It's a big deal and a what what they're going to have to try and pull off here with this budget is two things which don't necessarily is it very easily together.

So they got to have a budget that can set up the Labour government for the next five years.

It's the first labour budget in over a decade and the same time things haven't got that well for the government its initial couple of months.

So it's also a kind of

This is the moment they got a relaunch The Fortunes of this new government and you try and pull both things off in the media quite hard because of the one hand on a you know we're thinking of long-term going to be doing some difficult thing as a walk yield results that hope it a couple of years time but at the same time then he could a good headlines and I need to get a lift the spirits of the guy who taught more broadly and about your time.

I mean take us back inside number 11.

How are you deciding when it comes to that me just strategy what gets leaked what gets briefed out in advance what you're saving for the day.

How does that work everything in the budget has to be secret? I think I was always a bit of a mythology famously was the chancellor of the exchequer after the Second World War had to resign for what was going on a budget however.

There are some bits of the budget that are markets.

Move the share price for individual companies and they have to be kept secret and can't believe so if they are leeks.

That's so kind of mistake and people are held to account most that are closed economy anymore these decisions don't move the FTSE in the way that they used what really the central Media strategy is to get the bad news for the day that is the bottom line and how you run you know your Media strategy as a Chancellor and the Treasury team and the number 10 18 those are the only two bits of government that are involved in this process the cabinet by the way have no idea.

What's in the budget until the morning of the budget, so I'm saying I'm really listen to that.

I'm thinking that's you admitting to leaking giving guidance about what might or might not be in a budget speaking to particular favourites and say.

Trying to do two things you trying to condition the reception of the budget and fun when you can't do much of the economy is doing badly if the political Fortunes of the government think you can there's a limit to what you can.

Do you know the leads to the Financial Times a few days ago that it was looking to fill a 40 billion.

That's a classic.

I think it was the Golden Brown got the first started to tell the Financial Times 7 weeks in the size of the budget would be and then he get into this last week.

You know you will start each day to drip out B the budget by the will not get attention on the day and so we'll get lost but you want temperature for like some new Road new investments in the NHS is not going to be the top line news on the day and the same thing crucially you hint at tax Rises

Don't want to dominate the coverage on the actual Day Today newspaper coverage of the BBC female broadcasters will probably got a more balanced package on the night but in terms of the headline next day of the newspapers.

There's already say but we've covered the fact that the chances going to raise employers national insurance with that was our story a week ago early.

You preserve your secret your rabbits that are going to Classic strategy and business can meet you at the moment in the decision-making this point as I said no members of Cabinet other than the prime minister in the chance then maybe the chief secretary to the Treasury will know what's in the budget the moment the kind of circle starts to expand a leak starts expand and external factors United today's headlines.

You know all about Donald Trump like using leg body.

Events events dear boy events you talk about things can go alright to bring it up.

You were back in 2012.

What channel is called an omnishambles budget and you reverse the plan for a circle pasty tax.

I just wondered what role the media played in that in that reversal how how much pressure you feel under from journalists and that leads to the change United aid budgets and that one budget was against the backdrop of the economy appearing to be shrinked light on and so you know I was already up against it in that budget and so therefore the kind of Media will looking for something to go wrong in the past.

Is it became known as like increasing VAT on hot food in the scheme of the budget which changed income tax and James daughter was a very small measure it just came at a thing and yes the tabloid newspapers who wanted to give us a kicking was very in French I didn't feature the toll on the beach at night the pasty tax changes to pension taxation the headlines on the life of the next day when I turned up at the Treasury there was something from the Sun paper dressed as Marianne Antoinette handing out pasties the people going into the Treasury and that's when I knew I was in trouble want to talk to you about your pockets.

Just want to bring A baracus ft because you were laughing but how do you prepare for budget day? Ok? So it's a bit like gearing up for some gigantic finance.

Exam is George said nowadays with modern budgies a lot of the news is out there or is in the E30 you've got a feeling of where the big stories might be so you can kind of get all of your prayer.

I write about personal finance which of course the people who are wealthier reason we have tea is a big part of the picture, but equally the economy business owners they want to know how different policies affect their industry mean the pasty tax one of the chief payments do that with Greggs the bakers there share price went down around 15% in the 2 months after the budget because of the impact that measure would have had on their business.

So how quickly do you have to give you more and more quickly nowadays in the days of social media because I was speaking to some my colleagues in the office today.

What's the price of a 30 years supplement extra pagination you would do the budget at 3:30 as much later than UK suppressed.

Something paper of record that people would with keep and referred to as nowadays, it's all about finding that angle really quickly, what's the analysis everybody can get documents by downloading a PDF online on the days where the motorcycle couriers used to bring doesn't have read books to the ft office.

You've got to be able to analyse what the consequences of the tax changes are likely to be and George fed up with the pasty tax that's quite a memorable example.

Show me so much bigger consequences that could be in this budget because the chances going to have to make lots of adjustments to very very complex pieces of tax legislation changing the really big taxis so really big challenge on the day for us to work out what this tax Jenga moving one thing there could do to another thing over there and it automatically means 4PY

Children talking about leaking or not leaking but from your experience and with Tilly seeing briefings about what might be in the budget this time and every year that what's your experience of that get calls.

Do you do you aware that the ft is just talking about is getting forward briefings leaking but everyone all it I'm not seem so I would say no ft.

No comment stories, but obviously every journalist is going helpful.

They trying to get these story ahead of the budget.

You know we've got our ideas about what might be coming up and what is my phone will be putting stuff to the to the Treasury and people in Westminster and saying is this is this is this is what we hearing is at the case and then I said working out what the consequences could be if a change of that magnitude occurred but will look into trying to clever things digitally on the day.

We've got calculator said it been instantly see what all these tax changes affect we pay more.

That was the big story the budget 2 years ago with his frozen thresholds and fiscal drag effects that wasn't really increasing people's tax bill the time when the government was saying let me bring that you're clever takes.

What about your clever take George's when you're covering this budget with their balls on your podcast political currency both of you experience of being chance that how are you approaching it the first labour budget since you moved into journalism this week comes out on Thursday and then we'll have a special budget show after the budget in the afternoon next I guess you know what we try and do it to go behind the scenes with both written budgets and never delivered one but he was very influential in the Treasury and I guess you know and I've also edited and you spoke to standard and I will try to get away when I was at the evening Standard from a cuddle lazy journalism, which is to take the school from the Treasury and put it on your front page and think that you're being at a brilliant jealous.

There's nothing that you're in agreement play Transit get behind-the-scenes.

I think that kind of Central story.

Is is this the biggest factorising budget of the modern age because you just been here and you can freeze threshold.

It is all a bit complicated task that can a main rates except possibly employers National Insurance how quickly you gonna be able to work that out trying to do this so what you need to score card wear them which is a published document as you were just hearing you can get that instantly these days.

You just have to wait and that will tell you.

Where are the hidden stelfox is off who makes that where does that come from ultimately what money are raising and spending decisions.

I mean, I hope you get from us and there's a podcast is different from a newspaper.

Yeah, we are trying to tell you everything in the budget.

We're trying to give you the chance.

There's someone has been in a very influential treasury advisor on how the politicians think about this how a chance to think about what the budgets trying to do with many levels and it should can a supplement your understanding and Frankie and less you should have been in the room.

You know I've actually make your budget.

You probably can't give that end in sight as many other in ballyboden their own way and the different perspectives, but what are balls and I can do is gonna tell you what is actually like inside the room and that's what we do on political currency in Clare how does from what you'll be doing on budget then how you think that's a podcast because I've had different from newspapers that different from you more traditional Legacy television coverage of it cost to.

Tiktok on the budget this year from The Newsroom we also got me for this year the budget game so George saying what's it like to be in the room or what's it like to have your hands on the levers of power when it comes to making tax spending budget setting decisions.

It's a virtual game the designed you try and keep within the fiscal rules decide what difficult cuts you're going to and people will pop up for their journey.

The same will be no you've made a difficult decision to save lots of money, but this is generated lots of bad news headlines.

Can you meaning for me saying anything in 90 seconds? What have you got on expanded at but what can you mean if we do on the budget on tiktok? I think the biggest takeaways for younger people.

It's the younger eyeballs who tend to get their media coverage for me to give him an idea of what the cost to them in the pocket is going to be and you can do that.

In a budgets have lots of very poor things in them so when I announce changes to the taxation of pensions in 2014 revolutionise the personal finest ultimate say 90 seconds to communicate in a 18 second clip on BBC BBC ten oclock news what this whole budget was for sale on the national broadcasters at night and Central to what you're trying to do on the budget days have an overall impression and overall as well as all the individual message tax changes and what is the overall impression you get for about what the government up to and who's it for and you're just before you go I mean you mentioned the evening Standard you obviously for medicines evening Standard they recently announced an annual loss of 21 million pounds and July the London Evening Standard moved it's print output from daily to weekly.

View I mean can that newspaper survive not going with me? I like there's a Londoner I think there's still this problem which no I'm not aware that someone's really cracked the papers like the ft in the time.

So done a really good job and moving into a subscription model for people who are prepared to pay quite a large sum of money at which by the way.

I'm 14 get the premium broadsheet coverage and the broadsheets generally have financially sustainable model for the mid-market papers and for the tabloids and the evenings and it was a mid-market paid per, but you know in its day producing the couple of copies a day way more than that of the broadsheets is not really been found a sustainable model and the evening Standard is one casualty of that but UK

Across the tabloids and see their circulations, so no one has found a kind of crackable model and the people tried and of course the brands of Remains strong because that new media Brands have not really emerge successfully people still want those newspaper brands finding financial models for the mid-market and the tabloids remains elusive ok and your podcast political currency moving into a space if not that same space Thank you very much George Osborne and also Care Bear it and they have to thank you both so much for talking to me now at the weekend the London film festival cancelled a screening of the documentary undercover exposing the far right because of what the described as perceived risks of disruption or harm to audiences or staff the documentary which aired on Channel 4 on Monday follows anti extremism organisation hope not hate.

Infiltrate a far-right activist network promoting so called race science that's just hear a bit of it story.

Darken process to curious you have to be patient let it come to you.

Well, that's a flavour of the documentary is direct to Havana marking as with us and so is Nick Knowles could chief executive of hope not hate welcome to you both that have Anna first just explain to our audiences.

What was the story you wanted to tell the story of volved as as filming your balls didn't quite know what we're going to get at the Beginning Nick and his team at hope not amazingly for the first time.

I feel make it into follow their work and after about 6-months of that and filming in the office and what was going on generally confided that they had a an undercover operative working for them and would I like to also follow that story of course I am at that chance and the rest.

Is is a kind of a year later of following that story is that incredible undercover journalist Harry shukman manager.

South Street level and colour so-called elite intellectual levels of far-right activists and before we get into the details the documentary I brought up the fact that you were expected to Premier this film at the London film festival.

It's just finished on Sunday and why didn't the lff show it and what was your reaction to that they've said safety concerns staff you know post riots.

There's people have the right to to be nervous about these things it was pretty it came from a quite ill informed place but anyway they have been kind of the film, but it was this usually disappointing disappointing as well because this was actually we thought to make this film for cinema.

It's a feature-length documentary.

There's no voice over.

It's a beautifully crafted piece of work.

It's not just an incredible piece of journalism.

It's also.

Thrilling story, so it was disappointing not to see in that big big screen setting did you take it as a sign that people view you know the far as I wonder how much you took it as a sign that the people are so worried about the far right they feel that they can't put it on and for the film on about them in the cinema.

Seems quite quite shocking think it is great shopping and what I hope is booked on festivals.

Don't now think my god you definitely can't do it because they couldn't do it.

I think everyone I think the industry need to have a conversation about what we do.

You can't silence the films weirdly at the moment.

There is more audience and more than miles for the stories than ever before but getting the distribution and getting the funding is getting harder and harder as people getting more and more nervous and more more risk averse.

Really to take it on Monday on Channel 4 now you got access to hope not hate sat operation and to the undercover operation as you said wear them.

Hope not hates activism and your journalism were on because obviously you were observing there undercover operation rather than doing it yourself.

Yeah, that's right.

We were always you know it was investigation.

It wasn't are secret camera footage and we were just observing Harry and his handler Patrick along the way say it was ever on so because I mean they're incredibly professional and you know how is an incredibly train well trained journalist, so it never felt like there was something to hide or in any way that mean everyone was just completely open to us and we were given access to all the the secret camera footage nothing was ever hidden or anything like that so.

Open and straightforward in the way and it was I could bring you in how did you see that relationship between Havana as director and you and your organisation it was difficult as having said that this is the first time it loud cameras to follow us and indeed this was the first time with journalist or a staff member of staff at ever been into our office as well.

So you know because of the safety fears we have to keep her off this quite secret so it was a leap of Faith and obviously Hannah and I've got friends so that obviously open the doors and then just spending time with her Hannah you know we began to trust her but you know for some of our staff members it was difficult because however much.

I said she's a good person however much.

She said she was a good person there was obviously nervousness and obviously some staff members for a variety of different reasons.

I didn't want to be on camera as well, so we're really.

It would be with the outcome.

It's probably not something that will probably do it again in a hurry just because you know it is quite intrusive and you know it's it was a long slog but came out.

I think was great.

It wasn't wasn't covered as well documentary about your work by yourselves.

So what what does it give you to partner with Havana to partner for the first time is Ireland from outside it gave our work and the general public could could see I work you know obviously I'll supporters supporters.

They know they know little elements of our work at the undercut the research staff the campaign in all the community were but it was bringing I work for a bigger audience but also I think to be honest you know it was it's a test to us.

Well, you know we operate outside the mainstream, but you know whether it's the rules about undercover filming whether it's the kind of sign of processes all these things that actually we have a different set of Rules but actually we were tested ourselves and that's quite interesting.

I'm just explain to be really don't know enough about your work there in the actual operations that Havana films you can ducting is your objectives to make content that they use them release or are you Gathering evidence that you passed the authorities? So you know we have our research and we'll probably best known for a research on at any one time.

We might have anywhere between 10 and 18 people inside organisations giving this information that same time.

I also do a lot community work and we work in the Communities that we view most susceptible to to racism and

Duplo campaigning we do work in schools and with young people so I mean I think that you know does each each thing has some kind of purpose some of its to do you know like service providers or dealing with the kind of community that we work with we obviously tried to challenge narratives or click or policies that that that that that we don't agree with so you know I think this program.

We basically just had to take this phase that Ivana a would do it Justice but also I work was worthy of Nirvana Morgan just to bring you back in there are moments in the film where I wondered if your camera risk jeopardising next operation if you don't know the particular moment when they hate not home.

I hate trying to take photographs of his target with a the undercover person inside the room where he's trying to take photographs from the outside and then presumably you or someone is standing beside.

You can see that you're filming him trying to take those photographs.

How did you balance the need to get what you needed for your film with what hope not hate wanted to achieve.

I know if there's been a camera film very matter hiding behind lamppost basically.

I mean we worked really hard to make sure I'm in security and safety of Harry and Patrick his handler and of the operation itself with was absolutely parallel, and I think that was part of the hari-kari Patrick vs.

Handler the way we managed to get trust was babe taking security completely seriously and never you know risking a standing back.

If anyone felt like we were gonna actually jeopardise anything we were a very very very small crew.

It was either just me or it was me and a wonderful.

Cinematographer call Tom Turner and together that was it we never had a bigger crew that we use tiny cameras.

We never lift anything so we were actually it felt pretty ninja really ill we were filming things like this and people who exposed and accused of wrongdoing would be doorstep for example at the end and we hear how the response of the allegations.

Did you think of doing that you don't end up having that in the in the film now? This is an observational documentary about about hope not hate and the work that they do we did of course have right to reply people were able to respond to the allegations in that way very exciting I mean that the story also broken the Guardian so they were also doing their own individual investigation alongside us was also doing their investigation the wrong side.

I said it was a mammoth operation really on on different France and those when those rights replies went out.

Exciting actually that was that the one of the multi-millionaire fonda's of wine is very nasty networks has now pulled his funding from that organisation and he and he didn't know anything about their true mission, so that's true gender and sorry sorry, I have just to ask Nick as well.

Just slightly taking a step further out the far-right campaign Tommy Robinson arrive back in the UK this week is confrontational social media content as one of many followers as he's got a million on extensive was allowed back on that platform by Elon Musk how have the media Tactics far-right evolved over the last couple of decades? I mean I think you know massively I mean if I remember back.

I've been involved his for 30 odd years now if I remember to the late 1990s with the British National Party for around publicly renounce compulsory repatriation policy, because they were striving for.

Disability so they could get into the media and they thought that they the media would accept it, but the British Public when they accept it now.

We have a situation where in a way the far right.

Don't the mainstream Media but they've got their own media and actually if anything they kind of love counterpose themselves to the mainstream Media so there's no attempt of respectability and with a growing confidence I can really say what what what they want and I think that's a massive challenge to us because we're not even fighting on the same Arenas anymore, and I think that you know if you look at Tommy Robinson obvious is confrontational style and these kind of taking on the battery in a what he perceives as a bad works for him, but also he's been very successful and it's similar to What Trump's doing in the US and engaging with those podcast that can I speak to the colour of young man young you know it is the UFC MMA world and I think the challenge.

Society if we're trying to win some of these people that have been drawn to the far right.

We have to go onto their to rain now which probably wouldn't have to a few years ago and just Daniel de Simone is investigations correspondent at BBC News when he's reported extensively on the far right hello Daniel characters like Tommy Robinson obviously they make a big noise online they sizeable following as a journalist working in his area.

How do you decide what news cover is a merit for example? You know it's been reported that Tom Robinson organising a march in London on the weekend.

Will the BBC be coming at the BBC will be present at the March it doesn't cover BBC doesn't cover every March and most Saturdays in London there's a big March about something or other and normally people who do much is then if it doesn't get cover get upset about that and so why is not been covered there had to be a justification for covering a mate can't just that it's happening unless it's on a scale that makes it news in itself of course.

Nick was saying Tommy Robinson's got his own ecosystem really now in terms of is on x he's on other places where he's going to get coverage for this marches making a big noise about it has been several months in terms of whether we cover him or other things on the Star at it just it on merit and there's people do sometimes say the far-right actually gets disproportionate amount of coverage in the mainstream Media what would you think? I don't know if that's true.

I think with Tommy Robinson we have covered in at the BBC when it's merited so when he's come up in Criminal cases weather with his own criminal cases where he been charged when he's been at the High Court or he come up in Criminal cases, where he's been someone who's inspired people have been charged with other offences, then we covered him during the riots in the summer.

We mentioned him several times.

I've mentioned him.

I've covered him and mentioned his role in that because he was clearly an influential voice.

That week when we when we had the riots in the terms of far-right extremism or more generally when I've been done investigations on groups groups that are further to the right than Tommy Robinson we're not too good my approach is always been I don't really want to start mention those groups and giving them a platform less on at exposing something and disrupting them.

So if we if we exposing the leader of the group really disrupting then.

I'm happy to come to put it on the BBC what I wouldn't be comfortable doing is just mentioning some awful neo-nazi group without any kind of consequences for them and tell me when I return to the UK at the weekend, he arrived at Luton airport.

Had a copy of his new book in his hand he had a film crew with him.

He was expecting to be arrested.

Everything is viewed as a content opportunity yeah, and you know he done his various videos he got this fundraising already and I think that you know he has built up an op.

And in his bit built up quite an impressive operation that that's literally probably bring in millions every year and I'm just put in perspective when he had his demonstration London in July on his ex account was seen 58 million times.

It is his messages on that day so the scale of it is absolutely right now got rats in the US what you know whatever that mean.

I think that he is and it doesn't do anything recently.

I mean he's known by 68% of British people no no I mean if you make a news report about Tommy Robinson the windy and probably perhaps only him but maybe not there's a high Monster he will then use that in one of his videos he does so when I've mentioned on the news you then under p ends up putting it on X and tweeting it until the criticising whatever you said about me, does it?

He's clearly very aggressive towards journalists who cover him when the Daily Mail during the riots in the summer they put on the front page he was Turning himself in Cyprus told him in on a Sunday and you are the rights happening.

He could have aggressively then went off the journalist who are on the byline sending what appeared to be private detectives after them putting their pictures on his on his Twitter account so that sort of thing he does he tried to create a fear but in journalist in covering it need it absolutely does that all the time and I would like to just bring up another story with you.

Don't know briefly your thoughts on the because on Monday please of the Martin Blake was cleared of murdering cassava, when he shot in during a vehicle stopped two years ago the Met supported the lifting of reporting restrictions around cabins criminal history in order to reduce the risk of unrest is is this unusual I think what unusual is the case is unusual could it's so high profile that particular issues here.

I think that as a joke.

Is covered many trials and sort the lifting of reporting restrictions myself many times, it's not unusual to have a police force perhaps supporting the medias position or being neutral and being there for possibly against or neutral on a defendant position in this case Martin Blake was defendant so we're not he wasn't Martin Blake wasn't making representations, but as I understand the family of Chris Cabo want is a continuation of the reporting predictions because of an inquest that may happen answer the net was in supporting effective the media position the media want to report the full background so I think it's unusual situation because the argument was that this would help quell unrest is a put it if the Fall backgrounds about Chris came out.

I think that was an unusual argument in the sense.

It's unusual case but I didn't give him the context of the case.

It's an unsurprising argument from that.

Ok.

Testimony thank you so much for coming on also to Havana Mark and thank you and Nick Knowles and they're documentary Nirvana documentary undercover exposing the far-right can be found on 4oD you listening to the media show with me Katie razzall.

We're going to meet the man, they call the king of reality TV at the moment, but before that I want to spend a few minutes looking at another story.

I've been working on this Juliet Nirvana is the Widow of Alexei navalny the Russian opposition leader who died in an arctic penal colony in February she gave me her first UK broadcast interview that she published his patriot.

We talked about the circumstances of his death we talked about her own plans to stand for election if radomir Putin was to lose power and they give you a favour about conversation.

We talked about Alexa decision to return from Excel in 2021 after he was treated for poisoning with the nerve agent novichok.

You might recall the news footage of her and Alexa on the flight from Germany

He was promptly arrested on arrival in Russia I thought home when you are my lists but in the prison the way they are not going to sit down and place and then we can fly back to Moscow because me and Galaxy really dreaming to come back to Moscow with 12-in mask it's all about up to me and thinking about better things than you to switch to Virgin put the never know what is his smile, but it's better never to guess because you just need to do what you think is right for my longer interview with you in about an hour is on BBC iPlayer now, but also talked about the role of the media in Russia and the internet because you Lia has taken on Alex's role at the anti-corruption foundation.

This is his campaigning organisation that became hugely.

On YouTube the biggest investigation to date being 1 into a billion-dollar Palace on the Black Sea which they said belong to Vladimir Putin himself, well, Putin's Russia famously was so strict the internet compared to other regions and I asked you yet, whether that still the case.

Are you still in Russia but we have several YouTube channels more 3 million seats and we can see that those YouTube channels are watched from does that give you hope that the clampdown hasn't been total excuse me how to add people still get some messages you they block YouTube you find some other ways probably will be more difficult but will find some other ways to send the formation and of course all these people who won Russia who are say anything is Putin's regime.

They are very brave because for liking search.

For posting social media, they could be imprisoned you confident that your name is out there that alexa's name is out there because it seems as if because of the down because he's been killed actually you're not visible in Russia anymore.

There is no politics in Russia right now nobody squeezable the people are visible there.

Just supporters of wedding poses for seen you can be on TV if you support Virgin reporting propagandize first dog in Russia that's why it's very important for us to send the year and billing information for people inside crash as well.

That was Yulia navalny are talking to me and I'm delighted that Francis car from BBC monitoring is here to help us on pick some of this Francis welcome.

Is it just a matter of time do you think before access to YouTube from inside Russia is?

The Impossible well earlier this summer the roskomnadzor which is the Russian state body responsible for monitoring and censoring the media in Russia started to actively slow Down YouTube inside the people will find it hard to load videos in the country and certain people close to the Kremlin worth saying that this was a response to YouTube taking down the channels of programming blogger and channels inside the country not too bad this say that is only a matter of time before the YouTuber before YouTube is entirely blocked, but the fact is that it is still by far the most popular platform for view videos in Russia and in the past the Kremlin has been far less successful, when it comes to blocking things like telegram.

Would you tried to book in 2018 compared to the likes of China perhaps less than 3 which dissenting voices can reach ordinary Russians were there is telegram there.

There is YouTubers Facebook and Twitter are extensively band, but many Russians are able to add.

With the help of a virtual private network of BPM is expensive and closed down BP and then exactly they are every so often you hear that they've managed to close down a number of new weekends and two people are forced to sort of a game of cat and mouse with people are forced to find new ones.

I think really the Kremlin is before the invasion of Ukraine in 2020 the Kremlin allowed some freedom of expression to exist as long as it didn't see and he direct threat to the regime and since then it's really taking a much more wholesale to to clamp down on any kind of freedom of expression in the country from people spreading stories negative stories that you let Nirvana there seems to be this disinformation campaign linking her to other men while ex-husband was imprisoned just tell me about what you're supposed to be officers died.

Is targeted by Kremlin accounts on social media also by state tv.

Inside Russia who claimed that she had been unfaithful that she had abortions and affairs and there were spread on social media one in particular was with her with this major opposition proposition businessman.

Call you if you need to talk if you actually lives in in London and he is a longtime supporter of Nirvana and is a friend of was a friend of both of them and this was just a photo that been dug up from several years ago and there was another photo which is Dr which was of her several years ago hugging her husband at the time and his head of simply being replaced by the head of another man and these were being spread by by The Council social media and the political scene in Russia simply didn't know any better to to be able to verify the fact that this was this was simply this information.

Related story I wanted to ask you about this last week.

It was reported the Apple had complied with the Russian government order to restrict access to radio Liberty which is a new service funded by a grant from the US Congress tell us about your living water apples dance liberties funded by us Congress and has many channels around Eastern Europe and Russia and central Asia in the local languages which allow people to receive objective and true news, I suppose as opposed to the pro government propaganda is largely dominant in those kind of countries and what we seen here is really apple complying with this demand by the Russian government to to be a media outlet that it seems a bit, but it's easy as a as hostile and which has declared as undesirable in the country meaning that any kind of corporation with Lady Liberty

The Russians is illegal and actually report is there have been jailed in the past.

Thank you very much for coming on the media show now to a man who is America's king of reality TV Andy Cohen is the executive producer of the Real Housewives series which follows the glamorous and scandalous lives of very wealthy women since starting in 2006 with the Real Housewives of Orange County the franchise has expanded to numerous locations including Cheshire Beverly Hills Dubai and New York let's take a lesson meeting room have a nice cappuccino in you came after me in the house.

I was saying you're having a lovely mum with the ladies and UK man in your home and leave it on shoes you know.

Popular shows that just project Runway top Chef and below deck Mediterranean is also got his own talk show welcome Andy to the media, show yeah, we do a lot of different big right turn there housewives which has been broadcasting since 2006 expanded all over the world including as I said into the UK that Real Housewives of Cheshire how did the idea for the SOCOM about a gentleman as a brother I was in charge of programming a brother at the time he brought us.

I think of VHS tape of a bunch of his neighbours in Orange County wonderful matter grotto in her back.

She was an insurance agent is like a you have never had one.

It was like a pool with a rock feature a really intense.

TV with a waterfall and we just said why we've not seen mum's that look like this before and it was around the time that Desperate Housewives was a huge Sherwood scripted dramatic show on ABC and I want to listen set all these women go to the same tennis club.

They are living in the same neighbourhood maybe we could produce this crop and so we called it The Real Housewives as a nod to the show Desperate Housewives there because you even considered killing it off.

I think when you saw the consider killing it off as we're in production on season 1 we were not getting the footage that we were told it was not really coming together in a way and we were trying to figure out.

How are we going to make this into the shower and I think that if you watch season 1 of the Real Housewives of Orange County it's like watching those early episodes of The Simpsons where there's something there that relates.

Episodes of The Simpsons but it looks very primitive and weird and so I'm so glad we didn't kill the shop because I wouldn't be at broadcasts as well as what makes a real housewives.

How do you cast it and also how scripted is it when you meet a real housewive out in the wild you will see that.

It's not scripted.

They are exactly it is the secret sauces in the Casting of these women and I think the reason it's still going is because we love to judge human behaviour and what makes a grey real housewive is that your outspoken there's some how aspirational excuse me and they are funny.

There's a lot of humour in the Real Housewives I think it gets a bad rap because there are a lot of clips that are showing in theirs the clips of Shauna usually pretty confrontational or heated.

But there's so much more to the shower when I am if there wasn't so much more.

I don't think it would still be on a 18 years later.

We're just be a cartoon and he says Unscripted I'm sure you're right, but how are you shaping the store? How are you doing that? Are you how are you deciding? What is if you want my dinner party and there was some dramas over the the placement and then I saw you for lunch the next day.

I need the Producers would expect expect us to discuss the dinner party that we last saw each other and maybe the drama within our friend group, but no one is told what to say or how to say what feelings to have and that's what makes the show I think interesting because you never know how people are going to behave if we love to judge human behaviour surprised by how much of a head it's been and what do you think is about it that successfully created a documentary or a reality soap opera and as a huge fan of soap operas from when?

Growing up it has a lot of the same attributes that soap operas had you care about the people there people you love to hate there people that you love they are people that are funny that people that are off all I'm kind of everything and I think it also gets the same kind of negative rap that soap operas got as I was coming up people that they would use Kindle as though there were two negative.

I see a lot of the criticism of our Show and I see it as well.

This is this is this is similar to What the soaps were getting just take us behind the scenes filming what actually happens onset well.

No, I said I never go to a filming the housewives because it's weird really we're filming them leading a stencil e there lives and your of a restaurant there obviously cameras setup and it looks pretty drunk.

But there's still sitting there.

They're not there's no script.

They're sitting there having lunch and by the way sometimes.

It's super boring and that the final sometimes the ones that are sometimes interlayer in a flashback is nothing happened because I suppose that's me and part of the craft of this is pretty me the editing guys you I don't think decisions and I think you've used brother went brother being the channel, but I don't know what that means.

What is the bravo ;-) was an obvious shows are available on hayu around the world which is a great streaming service and other week with something that you know we would do in the adult room if it if someone said you know I love to be healthy.

We would possibly cut to the smoking a cigarette or you know I mean it's the position so we we kind of trying to show the full picture without saying anything but it is in the editing that you can.

Centre where we're going OK well.

Let's talk about duty of care for the participants one former real housewives got a lawsuit on the go at the moment.

She said produces put her in volatile situation to create good television that is a big charge and it how do you respond the allegation you were interested in the drama than the emotional well-being of that is I would say there an untrue and I'm so proud.

I didn't making this show and many other shows with this one for 18 years and I'm very proud with the care that we have take these women are coming on your shows and opening up their lives as they're telling their personal stories personal stories relating to an addiction getting out of bad marriage sometimes.

You know negative relationships with family members are so many sensitive issues and I'm very proud of Donald the way that we told the stories but in the care that we've

With our subjects the bastard that you mention and anxious for it to go forward.

I think I hope that most of it will be thrown out and then we will happily other day in court.

I'm just did something that's been told about the UK and strict guidance developed in recent years around reality TV so there's a show Strictly Come Dancing here are equivalent of Dancing with the Stars chaperones in the changing room many reality TV shows now offer professional and psychological support, how have you seen safety standards evolved over then? We've always offered a site to our participants.

That's nothing new for us and but look as as we all evolved is a cultural history intimacy a specialist Unscripted shows and now there are people are really grateful for it.

Looks different now.

You look back all you know you were getting away with things that you just wouldn't do know it's hard to you know.

I think it's hard to second guess where you've been and I think the point is that where we are now has evolved and I'm proud of that absolutely and do you when you when you look at that show you've been closely associated with so much the rise of reality TV what do you do in the future has in store for the genre are there any trains that you spot? I don't really know I'm really focused on keeping we've got 10 housewives shows going that we produced in the States and they are mainly in the States Dubai is her only international version the other formats we can have a licence to other production companies around the world.

So those 10 shows or what I Focus and really it's about keeping those shows going and fresh and interesting and successful and I can't get over that.

This is still going on now.

I'm so grateful for and I'm happy about it.

And I will take great care to keep it going for as long as they can and the BBC Tim Davie said he's banning the use of the term Talent in reference to high profile on their staff.

We haven't got very long but just in 2-minutes lovely Seconds of the sure.

What she told you make of that he is using talent talent talent to you for example.

Yes, and you don't have any Talent behind the scenes as well.

I mean your on-camera talent control room is full of bountiful off camera we can all the talent about that that sounds great and contract I mean alright.

I don't have that some people respond.

We are we are going we are going to continue our chat is your and you'll be able to watch More 4 on the BBC news channel this weekend on iPlayer but for our listeners on Radio 4.

We are going to have to say goodbye Rose is back with us next week from Washington DC thank you to all the guests on the media.

Show that is it for me you bye.